I know God

Great Debates
1

There are a lot of goofy things in the Bible. There has been a lot of religiously motivated war and persecution throughout history. A lot of people have been molested by priests. People make up stories about religious miracles and distribute them through the internet. Many great scientists have believed that there is no such thing as God. Atheists face discrimination in America. Bad things have happened that you would have prevented if you had the power.

If you were thinking of helpfully “reminding” me of any of the preceding facts, don’t. I live in the same world as you, and I’ve heard all the same stories. If it gives you such glee to relive all of history’s lies and atrocities, please start your own thread.

I don’t go to church or observe any particular religion. But for as long as I’ve been alive, I’ve been aware of something. I would describe it as similar to the awareness of your hand. You know your hand as a part of you, yet it’s something you can look at, feel, move, and use. You take for granted that it exists. If you put it behind your back, you still know it’s there, even though you can’t see it. Some people feel it even after it gets chopped off. If you are a physiologist with a scientific explanation of this phenomenon, once again I invite you to start your own thread about it.

When I cared to notice this “something” it was absolutely everywhere I looked. In this respect I can compare it to a nose. Ever think about how you can always see your nose? You learn not to focus on it, but if your eyes are open, you’re looking at it.

So I never doubted this thing existed. The questions I had were all along the lines of “What is its attitude toward me?” There were times I felt it was indifferent to me, but most of the time I felt it was there to remind me that everything would be okay, no matter what happened in this world. There were times I needed to feel bad, so I shut my eyes to it. But when I went looking for it again, it was always still there.

This thing didn’t come with a name. Names are just words, and it was there when I was born, before I knew any words. Eventually people started talking about God. I suspected they might be referring to this nameless thing because they said it was everywhere and that it was good. But they also said it got angry sometimes and gave orders that must be obeyed. And it had a face and would talk to people sometimes. So I wasn’t sure.

And I’m still not sure. The stories, the dogma, all the details, even the names they give it all just seem to me like obstacles to understanding and communing with this thing, although I understand they help a lot of people feel closer to something large, powerful, and good. But for all the questions in my mind, all the differences between my experiences and those of others, I feel like it’s closer to the truth to say “I believe in God” than it is to say “I don’t believe in God”.

So I’m an idiot apparently. As you’re reading this post, people are scribbling “cuauhtemoc” in their little black books under the heading “People I Am Smarter Than”. Armchair psychologists are diagnosing me with all manner of delusional hysteria. And Eve is rolling her eyes. I’m not going to pretend that religious people are persecuted in this country. I’m not going to pretend that atheists don’t get hounded by zealots, or that it’s not shameful when they do.

Instead I’m just going to sigh, and post this… thing. I’m not up to a full-fledged debate on this subject. If I ever am, however, I know where to go. This will keep happening over and over and over again here. Someone will post something controversial about God or religion. gobear will come in and explain why God is for fools. Polycarp will come in and respectfully disagree. His4ever will come in and tell us we’re all going to hell. And so on. And so on. And Scooby Dooby Doo.

This was destined for the Pit, but now that I’ve written it I can’t bring myself to put in the requisite Fuck yous. I’m certain some will see it as witnessing, although I’m sure not trying to convince anyone of anything, and I don’t think there’s much of a debate here. Nevertheless, GD it is. Mods, do with it what you will. I’m going to watch Al Gore on SNL.

2

I just don’t see a debate. I understand what you’re saying. And I want to see Gore on SNL but must wait a while…

3

** cuauhtemoc**,

I think you need to take a breath and forget what other people think about your faith.

I am an athiest and I find that Eve was out of line in the post you linked to. I can understand her sentiment, that the kid thanked God and not the Doctors that saved his life, but attacking a kid isn’t right.

I’d also like to point out that while the issue of God and religon is very decisive, most SDMBers’ know that and generally keep religous beliefs out of other topics. So you won’t be dismissed out of hand because of your beliefs.

In other words, if you bring up religion expect a big old mess. Otherwise religion doesn’t matter all that much.

BTW, I think your post was very well written.

Slee

4

Sorry you feel, uh, however it is you feel.
I’ve always felt that if you aren’t trying to use your internal experiences to prove anything, people “disagreeing” with them is a best nasty and at worst nonsensical.
Have you ever read any Bishop Shelby Spong? I think he’d interest you very much.

5

I tend to find that “I believe in God” is the wrong answer to the wrong question most of the time. I usually put it as, “People don’t go around believing in feet”, but “People don’t say generally say they believe in noses” works just as well.

I went and read the referenced thread . . . I’m not going to post to it, I have enough sturm und drang in my life right now. And somehow I don’t think that my own belief that the hands of the gods are more often people than not would be taken as anything other than disingenuous rot.

6

Schizo.

7

Moderator’s Note: Kalt, knock it off and DON’T DO THAT AGAIN!

8

Why do you believe in the Judeo-Christianity god istead of Odin? Socialization. You have been brainwashed to equate whatever nebulous feeling you have with YHWH without even bothering to see if it’s your inner eyelid that you have been feeling.

9

Additionally, all of those who were raised in Christian homes in this mostly Christian society but became athiests after much research were- oh, wait, that doesn’t work. Hmm, all the people who’ve spent many a sleepless night contemplating God and religion and have converted were also socia- hmm, dang. Well, all those people who have thought long and hard and finally confirmed for themselves their belief in their own faith were brainwashed by- well, frick, I give up.

Note: I am not trying to cast aside the contributions of John Watson and other prominent sociologists, but simply expressing that when it comes to something as personal as religion, people aren’t necessarily the sheep we like to make them out to be.

10

Well, bollocks. I’ve confused socialization for classical conditioning. My bad. Let me go find me 'ol textbook and clear up the name.

11

cuauhtemoc, I know God also.

I feel the presence you speak of, I see the “something” in all things, even those who belittle. You’re right, names mean nothing. I know I am safe and loved wherever I am, whatever I do. When I seek, I find, when I need, it is furnished. I am indeed blessed. I saw the “something” in the light of my near death experience, I felt the love and learned much. My steps are guided by the love and Oneness of all things. You are very blessed and thank you very much for posting here. It is much appreciated.

Love
Leroy

12

Are you talking to me? Do we know each other? How do you know what religious tradition I was socialized in? I’m not sure I appreciate being told I’m “brainwashed” by someone who has obviously applied his own deeply ingrained prejudices to the OP. I make up my own mind about what I feel. You see the word “God” and start talking about “Judeo-Christian Socialization” Which one of us is brainwashed again?

13

I’ve never seen Gobear say that God is for fools.

14

cuauhtemoc you need to study some Hinduism and the concept of the universal consciousness (or the one)
The idea is that we are all a small part of a larger universal intelligence and that we are able to tap into that “God” (if you will) through our subconscience.
This “thing” as you put it is all around us all the time and we are not conscious to it. But through meditation and other ways of taking advantage of the resources in our subconscious we can “communicate” with the one.

Baird T. Spalding wrote a series of books called “The Life and Teachings of the Master’s of the Far East”, he went to Tibet/India in the late 1800’s with a team of “scientists” and spent several years there. The books are written with a Christian slant, but that need not prejudice the reader.

disclaimer: I make no statement of divine knowledge here…just relating a message that may be helpful. Let the readers decide for themselves.

15

I think, **cuauhtemoc/b], that you have expressed, with personal involvement, the sort of stance I’ve tried to express here before in other threads. And, of course, I think your perception is accurate – and I congratulate you on trying not to build definition-walls around What/Who it is that you perceive.

16

Nothing comes with a name.

This is true of everything.

If you don’t know what to call it, I don’t know if I can agree with you.

17

The problem is, the phrase “I believe in God” carries a lot of extra socially-implied meaning. It means much more than cuauhtemoc’s sense of “I believe in an external presence of which I am aware.”

If you say “I believe in God” in a Western country, people are going to automatically assume that you mean “I both believe in the existence of, and try to follow the commandments of, the God described in the Old and/or New Testaments.” In fact, if you don’t mean that, you have to say something extra, e.g. “I believe in God, but not necessarily the God of the Bible,” so that people won’t think that you’re talking about the anthropomorphic deity worshipped by a nomadic desert people 2000-3000 years ago.

18

—It means much more than cuauhtemoc’s sense of “I believe in an external presence of which I am aware.”—

I am aware of countless external presences: perhaps cuauhtemoc is just under specifying, or even missing out on all the others?

But really, I think cuatuhtemoc’s feeling is probably more accurately described as also including the feelings that there is the same presence out there wherever he looks, and that it’s not exclusively external.

I again re-iterate my suggestion of Spong, who has written quite eloquently on this very subject from the perspective of a very passionate believer.

19

Well, actually, there has been a lot of war and persecution motivated by power and only rationalized by religion.

I’m glad you’re all spriritual and everything, but there’s no point blaming religion, per se. It’s just power’s facade.

20

Brilliantly stated, Mr. Ekers! Thank you.