I’m going with this here.
mmm
ETA: OP, why are you intentionally doing something you are not supposed to do (per your title)?
Is there a difference between judging and having an opinion? People can spend their money as they wish, but I don’t feel superior if I think they’re making bad choices. You’d rather have a fancy car than a nicer place to live - your call, even tho I think that’s nuts. You want to shop thrift stores and hoard every penny you can - knock yourself out.
Personally, I think funerals are an unnecessary expense, and I won’t be having one. And while I might help a friend who felt it was important to have a funeral for a parent or child, I couldn’t bring myself to contribute to a situation like in the OP, because, in my opinion, I disagree with their choice. Does that make me judgemental?
Yeah, this is where it got too far. Sacrificing the future (college education, in this case) to ceremonialize someone who already died (the past.)
I agree, the family wasted a lot.
Are the parents compensating for feeling guilty now because their predominant emotion after the child died was/is relief, that the long nightmare is finally over? Is the mongo funeral about covering that feeling up, or making up for it?
My now-deceased first wife had a long slow battle with cancer. She handled her fate with skill, determination, and aplomb unto the end. But it was hard on both of us; real hard. As much as I’d have given anything, or would give anything now, to have healthy her back, once she was gone my predominant emotion was relief. That she, and I, would no longer have to carry the burden of that disease and infirmity all day every day. I’m not built for guilt, so I find nothing paradoxical or wrong about that feeling. Others might be appalled at themselves for having those same feelings.
Very smart!
Guilt will manifest itself in strange ways.
I’ve been close to death. I see guilt on my family’s faces. It’s not their fault I was born this way. It’s not something they can control. I’ve lived past my use by date and I’d rather they feel relieved if I die.
Because I can’t help it? My gut reaction, unthinking, to learning about the money spent on that funeral combined with the ‘we’re asking people to donate for it’ was, Are you all nuts? It wasn’t a choice of, should I judge them? I just insta-judged them, and then later wondered if my reaction was so out of line.
I’m really not an utter “Bah, Humbug” miser type. I was glad to participate in some of the earlier fund raising efforts. I bought baked goods, I attended a children’s ‘talent show.’ I even paid X per jump for some kid to jump rope – a type of fund raiser I think is also utterly stupid. Why not do something worth while – rake leaves, wash cars, whatever – instead?
But those were for funds to either pay medical expenses, or necessity of life stuff to help out the family with dealing with the medical stuff. IOW, items/activities I saw as serving a good purpose.
But to me the idea of spending tens of thousands of dollars for meaningless (to me) frills and ostentation at a funeral, well, that’s just plain stupid. (IMHO, heavily lard this with acknowledgements that other people opinions can differ.) They might just as usefully have piled the paper money up and set fire to it.
And, yes, I know plenty of wedding rituals and embellishments in America are just as ‘stupid’ viewed coldly from the outside as someone else pointed out. But a) I didn’t myself engage in any of that stuff myself (city hall with parents and a couple sibs in attendance, then a not at all high end meal at a local restaurant) and b) nobody has ever asked me to help bail out someone else who has gotten into financial trouble over engaging in such themselves. Donate to a GFM because Bill and Betty spent more than they could afford on the open bar at their reception and imported orchids at the ceremony??? I’d laugh right in their face.
And so I’m hesitating over the GFM for this. I feel pressured to, due to my friendship with the great aunt, but at the same time, resentful of being asked to give money for what I see as utter waste. Which is why I’m a little happier at the idea that a chunk of that debt was actually medical stuff and not all funeral bills.
Right now I’m hoping when I see the GFM site that there were be a good number of ‘anonymous’ donations. I’ll just give some small amount anonymously so if the great aunt ever asks me if I gave, I can honestly say I did.
What I might do is give a larger gift to the other two children later on, when they (hopefully) head off to college or some other advanced schooling.
I think that’s fine to give an amount that you think is appropriate rather than an amount proportional to what they spent. You shouldn’t feel obligated to help ensure they get all their costs covered. Especially since I get the sense that you’re not necessarily close with this family. You just know who they are. Whatever motivated them to spend that much is up to them, and other people shouldn’t feel responsible for that. If the college funds don’t get replenished, oh well. Lots of kids don’t have college funds and they figure something out. Hopefully they didn’t go too much into actual debt that will dragging them down for a long time. It’s one thing to drain your savings and be left with nothing, but it would be bad if they end up having financial issues because they went overboard with this.
Apologies, that was a bit harsh. I get it.
mmm
It’s interesting that you mention weddings - because although plenty of people would laugh their heads off at a GFM because Bill and Betty overspent on their wedding reception, many of those same people would give them a cash wedding gift without thinking twice. And even those who wouldn’t give a cash wedding gift would give some sort of gift. So what I would do in your situation is the equivalent of what would do for any of my friend’s great-nephew’s funerals - which might depending on culture be anything from putting $10 or $20 in a card, sending flowers. buying a Mass card , having trees planted in his memory sending a sympathy card or nothing. I mean the friend is your great-aunt, not the mother or father and I probably wouldn’t do anything more than expressing my condolences.
Also, it’s entirely possible that the parents aren’t involved in setting up the GFM. My nephew’s father died and making and paying for the arrangements fell entirely on him as his half-siblings are 20+ years younger and his father wasn’t married when he died. His aunt on the other side of the family set up a GFM without telling him first.
Nothing to add regarding the funeral expenses, but since this is the Dope, the stand is called a plinth.
I think there’s a lot of room for cultural differences here. As in, claiming a $30,000 burial, but they actually got a deep discount, it’s possible those folks that are being flown in will then be obligated to donate towards the family, for doing so. It could be that the appearance of bankrupting oneself is a very real part of the ritual.
Think of a traditional Muslim wedding, in the women’s tent there is much screaming and crying, like for a long time. The mother weeps loudly, the daughter screams her tears in return. But the truth is it’s expected. It’s become a demonstration of how much you love your mother/daughter, the crying can literally go on for hours!
I’m just saying, there’s a lot of room for misinterpretation here, to my mind.
My sister said the mothers do the same thing during childbirth – really exaggerated over-the-top crying and screaming. It’s one time when the focus is on them, and it’s a way of getting attention they don’t normally get.
Spending $30k you don’t have on a funeral? What’s wrong with judging that? I think it would be far worse to approve of same - or support it through GFM.
Of course, your judging or approval really means nothing. They are free to spend their money as wisely or stupidly as they wish.
Yes, that’s just it. If you spent $40,000 on Warhammer figures, and then your friends set up a go-fund me campaign because your children were about to be evicted from your house, we’d call you stupid.
But spending $400 of disposable income on a hobby is normal.
…you see, I don’t get this.
Why are you resentful?
Just tell her the truth. If she’s your friend she will accept that. Tell her that the situation simply appals you. That the parents should have been worrying about those other two children instead. That they overpaid for the funeral and that you have no sympathy, and that you don’t want to hear about that family ever again.
And that no, you won’t be contributing to the go-fund-me, and that you resent the aunt for asking you in the first place, and that she should have known better.
Why don’t you do that?
But before you do that, let me share with you my story on what its like to have to
My first experience with losing someone close to me was when we lost my dad. We ended up “overpaying” for my dad’s funeral by a factor of four. Do you know why that happened? Because it was our first time losing someone close to us. We didn’t know what to do. We didn’t know who to call. We didn’t know how much the catering was going to cost. There was just so much that we didn’t know.
So we remembered the last funeral we went to about 15 years prior, so we called up that funeral home and we spoke to the director and we told them to take care of everything. And over the next week we barely had enough time to grieve because we were so busy organizing something that we never, ever wanted to do.
This wasn’t like a wedding. This wasn’t a celebration. It was a chore. I didn’t want to be arguing with the funeral director about the “live stream” that he promised was going to happen but didn’t. The caterer who just didn’t understand that finger-food and canapes weren’t going to cut it when the Samoan contingent were heading down from Auckland.
Money became abstract. It became this thing that we didn’t have time to process. We just needed to get the funeral done. We would sort everything out later.
It wasn’t long after we lost dad that my mum got diagnosed with cancer. We decided with mum that we were going to take care of her hospice care ourselves. My brother looked after her during the day. And I stayed with her, by her side, sleeping occasionally when I could in a chair.
I will never be able to explain to you what the realities of full-time hospice care are. We did everything we could to make those six months the best they could have been for mum.
But it just sucks the life out of you, man. The rest of the world just stops. You exist on the edge of a knife. It been two years now. And I’m still not over it.
What I don’t understand about this thread is that these people are strangers to you. You don’t know all the facts. You don’t understand the trauma they’ve just experienced, the trauma they are living through, the trauma that is to come. You gloss over the two years working to care for him full time as if it was nothing, but for me that was the hardest thing I’ve had to do in my life.
And when my mum passed away we were no better prepared than we were when we lost my dad. We saved a bit of money this time. But the funeral was no less of a chore, that week is no less of a blur, the sadness no less enduring.
I just don’t get why any of this story has anything to do with you. You live in a country where so many people are on the grift. You go to the supermaket or go buy a burger and that employer is ripping off their employees to the tune of millions. If you’ve ever caught an Uber you are putting money into the pockets of a global corporation that has done more to destroy the economy than what this poor family that needs a paltry $35,000 will ever do.
Nobody is demanding that you care. If it is impossible for you to feel empathy for this family then thats fine. Don’t contribute to the Go Fund Me and go about your day.
But I don’t understand what you want out of this thread.
I know you’re not supposed to judge people on how they post on a message board. But the fact that you don’t seem to be able to let this go says something quite clearly about you.
Moderating:
This is a personal attack. Moreover, you’ve engaged in a rant that’s appropriate for the Pit, but not MPSIMS. I am sympathetic to the fact that you have strong feelings on the matter – which is the only reason this is not a formal warning.
After losing our son to cancer, I will never judge how someone copes or grieves after losing a child. We went the economical way with his celebration of life. But I can understand how it could get out of hand. Your mind is not in it’s usual state. You have thoughts, regrets, anger, sadness, even relief and a whole slew of other things running on a loop 24 hours a day in your brain. If your child was sick, you’ve been living on the brink of life and death for however long it takes. Your life has changed and you will never get your old life back.
Grief has no logic, it’s just intense feelings. Your logic is excellent, but the reality is that it has nothing to do with their grief. Funerals are not for the dead, they are for the living. They are part of the coping process. This is how they are trying to cope with the loss of a child.
Yeah, I wouldn’t advise doing that unless and until the great-aunt asks for your honest opinion, as a friend, about this situation. Honesty in friendship doesn’t automatically require gratuitous criticism of your friend’s relatives during a very difficult time for all of them.
If the OP doesn’t feel it would be right to contribute to the GoFundMe, they should just discreetly not do it and avoid any controversial discussion of the matter unless directly invited to contribute an honest opinion. Unsolicited scolding of other people for choices they’ve already made and expenses they’ve already incurred doesn’t really accomplish anything.