I met some Missionaries today...

[Monty]

Abby: I’m sorry if you found my response to someone who, IMHO, was being willfully obtuse, as unkind.

[Monty]

^posting above is sincere. I apologize to you, Abby.

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by Monty *
Try to keep the personal attacks (and the lies) out of GD, why don’t you, Books.

Back off Monty. I’m not alone in getting tired of the perpetual chip on your shoulder.

I read the thread exactly as BookWoods did. I’m getting tired of damage control after you come into every discussion vaguely related to LDS issues.

I debated how to respond to this thread until you flat out called BookWoods a liar. I’m calling you on it. Back off, or take it to the pit. I’m not an admin, so it’s not an official request. But I am a Mormon. I’m a former Elders Quorum president, and currently the Gospel Doctrine instructor in our ward–I spend a great deal of time in my current calling dispelling beliefs rooted in false doctrine as well as attitudes based on false information, and I spent a lot of time in my previous calling doing damage control with people who walked away from the church precisely because of encounters from abrasive personalities and conversations not unlike this discussion. This overt hostility to anyone who looks at us sideways is a problem, and I hope you can face it directly and with humility.

I’m sorry to address this in public, but I feel it’s necessary. Please please please back off Monty.

Oh, and I’ll stop calling myself a Mormon when it’s called the “Latter-day Saint Tabernacle Choir”.

[Monty]

Back off from what, emark? From calling people on misrepresenting what was posted–and is still there in plain sight to see–by other posters? YOU might be tired of doing “damage control” to damage that doesn’t exist; however, did it occur to you that I’m tired of seeing false statements lay there as though they’re true.

THIS is what I was talking about when I mentioned keeping the lies out the thread:

After this is when Monty attacked me (in his bitchy way) for mis-reading Abby’s post and Abby agreed with him that I am not reading or understanding her posts.

I made a snide comment, not an attack and not “bitchy.” Do you not see the word “bitchy” in there?

From BW’s appearance in this thread, it’s been one long haul on BW’s part to get it into a discussion very far afield of the OP. It’s been intentional obtuseness on BW’s part.

For both you and BW: The idea is to read the entire posting and make a decision about that posting based on what the entire posting says; that’s kind of what I was getting at with the snide remark. I feel that you are both hopping onto just a portion of the postings and I honestly am not interested in either one’s history as to why you do that. BW has hopped onto two words: “myth” and “polygamy” and is failing to understand what Abby said–after being repeatedly told that the posting (which, btw, is still there to see) that Abby did not say polygamy was a myth, BW continues with wanting to know why Abby’s saying it’s a myth. You have hopped on my calling BW on telling a lie. Well, tough. When someone tells a lie to me or about me, I call them on it directly and at the spot. You got a problem with that, you start the pit thread.

[TeaElle]

Monty, surely you recognize opinion when you read it?

[emarkp]

*Originally posted by Monty *
I made a snide comment, not an attack and not “bitchy.” Do you not see the word “bitchy” in there?

Yes, it was pretty hard to miss the word. And as much as I detest the word (and it’s increasingly common use), I find it to be an apt description of your comments.

Your claim is that BooksWoods misrepresented what was posted. He claims that he misunderstood it. It turns out, I misread it the same way and had to think about it before I realized AbbySthrnAccent was talking about the myth that polygamy is still being practiced among the LDS church.

The fact is, this thread is now a train wreck of repeating what was said in the thread and this is largely due to your accusing BooksWoods of intentionally misrepresenting a post. It’s entirely ridiculous.

Especially when this active Mormon read Abby’s post the same way. That’s why I ask you to back off.

[Monty]

Well, emarkp, I respect you. But I disagree with you here.

[BooksWoods]

Abby, I appreciate your attempts here and I do apologise that we never seemed to connect on what we really meant. I didn’t mean to give you such a hard time and I think we both got frustrated. My posts obviously came across differently than they were meant to when I wrote them.

As for Monty, I agree with Emarkp that he does more damage to the image of the LDS church than any “anti-Mormon” could do - and misrepresents the gentle tolerance displayed by most LDS followers I have met. He certainly wasn’t helping Abby with his “support.” Oh, and btw, thank you, Emarkp for at least helping me feel like I’m not going crazy here.

One last “clarification,” and I’ll be off:

Particularly since he follows with “In fact, many public schools in some parts of the country DO teach creationism as opposed to evolution. I was at an elementary school in Oklahoma once where the Lord’s Prayer was recited at the beginning of class each day. Since everybody supported this, there wasn’t any dissent.” When 1) I didn’t deny that schools anywhere taught creationism. 2)I start to wonder if he’s older than I am though, because creationism and evolution were taught when I was very young, but by the time I was in middle school, I only recall evolution. 3) Why or what do his school experiences in Ok have to do with or lead him to believe that there is some huge obstacle in the LDS church with regards to evolution/creationism?

This part followed my question about how schools in predominantly Mormon communities teach about history that is contrary to what is in the Book of Mormon (such as American Indians coming from the Middle East). It was just an example of what I saw in another part of the country (in this case, where the majority of the community were fundamentalist Baptists). At the time (in the 80s) there were laws expressly forbidding teaching religion in the schools, but - because everybody belonged to the same church and nobody protested - they went ahead and taught Biblical history and prayed in the public school. I realize that LDS followers are not creationists. This was an example of a different Christian sect promoting their own beliefs in the school, and I was curious if this is true in small LDS communities as well. I’m guessing not, and you don’t have to answer this. For the record, I don’t even have any big problem with what they were doing in Oklahoma, as long as there were no complaints from the community or the student body.

[dangermom]

Having never lived in a small, all-LDS community, I really couldn’t tell you what they teach in the schools, but I have heard that some people can get pretty exclusionary in some places. There have been several impassioned pleas over the past several years by leaders of the Church for people not to act un-neighborly towards non-members in their communities.

I do have a problem with what the schools in OK were doing, and if I knew that Utah schools were doing it, I would be very angry. I’ve heard too many stories about the single Catholic family in the school. Mormons, however, don’t have the same serious conflicts with public school material, and we also have an outlet in seminary, a daily early-morning religion class for teens.

I realize that LDS followers are not creationists.

Really? You’re one of a few, then. I’ve had to clarify even for close friends the differences between fundamentalists and Mormons.

FTR, I support emarkp in his comments. Monty, I’ve asked you to calm down in other threads, and always received the brush-off. I’m asking again for you to please be less abrasive in your defense of the Church. You know, my dad was once of the guys giving Mormons a little bit of a hard time. He’s been a member for I guess 35 years now, but his first impressions were from a guy who exhibited grace under fire.

[vanilla]

*Originally posted by BooksWoods *
**JAYSUS!

Here is how it went:

Abby: “When asked I do not say Mormon, because it never fails someone mentions polygamy or some other derogatory myth.”

(my interpretation of what Abby said: “It is a myth that Mormons practiced polygamy.” Or maybe that she wanted to use a different name for her church to hide this part of their history?

Books “Don’t mean to question your faith, Abby, but which part of Mormon polygamy is a myth? It may not be condoned by the church today, but was very strongly encouraged and practiced by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and most of the early church leaders who promoted it as a revelation directly from God and a central tenet of the LDS church.”

(what I meant: “it isn’t a myth. It indeed used to happen, even though I know it doesn’t today.” Example: if I told you a “Greek myth,” would you think it was from the past or the present?

Abby: “I am fully aware of the history of the church with regards to plural marriage…(snip)…
The myth I was referring to is that people I have encountered tend to think it was practiced in every family and that it is still practiced in the church over 150 years later.”

(my interpretation of Abby’s statements: “I know it used to happen. I was referring to the myth some people hold that it still is part of church practice and belief, which it is not.”

Books "As I said, I asked also for clarification - not just to debate. I do NOT question your faith, Abby. I did question why you called polygamy a “myth” as it is very much a history of the LDS church. It bothers me when religious people deny unpleasantries in their histories, but it sounds like you had good reason to educate people about how the LDS behaves today as opposed to in the past."

I bolded this last part because it is where, after I questioned Abby’s use of the word “myth” to describe something that did indeed occur in the past, I acknowledged that I now realized that Abby was talking about the myth that polygamy is a current LDS practice, which I know it is not. I tried to communicate that I do understand what Abby means - that many people she meets seem to think polygamy is still part of LDS practice, which it is NOT. That I understand and empathise with her need to educate non-LDS people ABOUT THIS.

I was trying to recap that, but failed miserably, at least in my attempt to communicate with our LDS brothers and sisters here on the board.

After this is when Monty attacked me (in his bitchy way) for mis-reading Abby’s post and Abby agreed with him that I am not reading or understanding her posts. I hope this helps you two understand what I said and meant. I just need closure on that, and I’m done, because - nice missionaries aside - it’s too frustrating trying to talk to LDS believers on this board about their religion. Thanks anyway, folks.

**

nobody understands what you are saying.
at all.