That’s how it was at my old department. Very little had changed in the 25 years I was there. I was a little stunned by the amount of gun training required by the department I’m on now. And it doesn’t matter if you’re full or part-time (about 10% of the department is part-time. Mostly guys like me who retired from other departments) everyone gets the same amount of training. We have some guys that are full timers with other agencies who only work for us during the summer on the boat patrol. Even they have to do the same training as the rest of us. Even if they had training at their regular department they are required to do ours also. No exceptions.
I just checked and they’ve redesigned their site, but I remember that the Border Patrol Tactical Unit(BORTAC) page used to say that you had to qualify with a pistol in the middle of a grappling match while subduing your opponent.
They had pictures to prove it. Neato, huh? Neato enough for a book… :::nudge nudge:::
We do that, but with simunitions, not regular ammo. What we did do with live ammo is get sprayed with OC, fight a guy in a red suit, then had to shoot a target from 5 yards. (that particular one required hitting in upper mass, not a head shot). I know this is GQ and not the Pit, but I fucking hate pepper spray!:mad: There are some people who get used to it. Not me! I’ve been hit half a dozen times with it and it seems to get worse every time!!!
Agreed!! I always get a kick out of the anti-Taser crowd when they comment, why did they have to use such excessive force, why not just pepper spray him!
ha ha ha!
Pepper spray is by far so many times worse than CS Gas or getting Tazed. I’ve experienced all three.
I only got residual CS when I sprayed people years back when they issued it and not pepper spray. (or was it CN? I forget. We started getting OC back in about '94. I’ve been in the game since early '82).
As far as the Taser, I’ve yet to be tazed. I retired before they started issuing it and the department I currently work for part-time doesn’t require (yet) that you carry one (you have to get zapped in training to carry one).
About 75% of the officers here carry one, and there is a pussy accusation to those that don’t, so the walls are closing in on me.
However, EVERY single officer that I know that’s gotten tazed says they’d rather get OC’d. This does not help a guy like me who fucking hates OC! You are the first to tell me OC isn’t as bad.
Old time Mace was CN. CS is Tear Gas. I’ve never experienced CN.
The thing about the taser is that when it’s over, it’s over. Aside from a racing heartbeat and heavier breathing, but even that goes away quickly if not immediately.
OC… fuck if I didn’t completely shut down. Not just the insane burning in my eyes, but worse was the feeling that I couldn’t breathe at all. We had buckets of water and hoses and stuff to wash it off afterwards. But I could not get myself to dunk my head in the bucket because I already felt as if I couldn’t breath. I just couldn’t get my mind to let me try and hold my breath as I stick my head in the bucket. So I definitely didn’t help the matter by sitting at the bucket forever, like some drunken party goer resting his head at the edge of a toilet. Had I washed it all off right away, it might not have been as bad, who knows. But I am not readily willing to find out!
An hour later, face still stinging a little, still short of breath and eyes very sore. Just sitting in front of a huge fan, sucking the breeze and grasping a wet towel.
24 hours later, and my eyes still felt the effects. It felt like I had beach sand in my eyes.
Bring on the Taser. Quick and over with!
To be accurate, it is a magazine or a mag, not a clip.
Alright. I just remember that the training was to spray a paper target in the chest (not the face) as it dispersed upward. In the 10+ years I carried it I must have sprayed a zillion people. Drunks & druggies were a 50-50 proposition on the stuff. OC is MUCH more effective, by far. People who were sober but just pissed off and aggressive dropped pretty quick on CN. But the reaction was still not as sever as pepper spray.
Also, CN didn’t do squat to animals. Nothing. OC is far more effective. But not 100%. I’ve sprayed dogs with OC where I got them in the face, nose, eyes, etc., and they would have laughed at me had the Great Pumpkin given them the ability. There were a couple of situations where we shot dogs (VERY vicious, aggressive dogs) because the OC was completely ineffective. I don’t get it.
I knew a few cops who qualified with barely above a passing score and no more; but I know that they could have qualified higher.
They feared that they may have killed a suspect and subsequently had to face a judge who, after reading their file, may ask “Since you’re an expert shot with your weapon, why could you not have shot to wound the suspect instead?”
I’d rather not get into it as it strays even further from the OP than I’ve already done.
But this is absolute crap. Ask your cop friends what hearing they’ve been to/in where the judge was cross-examining officers like this.
Either this post is false or someone has lied to you.
I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you… well, not HAVE to kill you… but as I’d be facing charges for revealing classified information it might just be easier. That’s the army (FDF, light infantry) for you, blanket classified rating regarding all aspects of the training… can’t really see how it would harm national security if tell someone how much we used to run in a week (a lot)… but that’s how it goes. Regardless, I used to be able to throw a 6cm grouping from 20m with my sidearm; and I was far from being the best pistol shooter in my unit; admittedly it was one of those units that wear floppy hats… and some of the guys really do take it all a bit seriously.
One thing seems odd, you’ve giving way too much time…
Take a look at air marshals http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html
Or the FBI, DRY FIRE TRAINER: FBI Pistol Qualification Course
Your scenario might provide a challenge to the average beat cop… but he could just throw the pistol at the target, go pick it up and repeat for all valid targets and have some donuts while he waits for the clock to run out.
How about you make him do some killhouse work instead? That’s always fun.
I’ve always felt the Sky Marshal course is a bit of an oddity. It’s specialized for their job and is extremely fast, but only in short bursts. You have to do a double tap in 1.35 seconds, but then you can take a break, smoke a cigarette, have a massage and get ready for the next round. Well, not really, but you can mentally.
We shot it at our pistol range a few times and out of SWAT cops, military and just damn good shooters, I was the only one who ever passed. I think my secret was to take the time between rounds to mentally prepare for every step I had to do. “Ok, I’m going to bring the pistol up and fire. As soon as I pull trigger, let left thumb come up to mag release and let left hand reach down for new mag, eject mag as soon as I touch the release, put finger on slide release as tilting gun a little to meet the magazine as it comes up, insert mag, look for front sight as flipping slide release, acquire second target and as soon as gun levels out…boom.”
I always thought it came down to that mental preparation more than skill. When the buzzer went off, I was just a robot ready to spring into action, then I relaxed and thought about the next stage. We shot the FBI Q and MEUSOC courses a lot and I always felt they were a test of skill with a gun(s) while the Sky Marshal’s was a test of fast hand movement.
Retired from the NYS Department of Corrections.
We had to shoot once a year. It was a requirement set by law to maintain your peace officer status and right to carry a firearm.
We didn’t get into combat simulations. We would line up to shoot at stationary paper targets. The targets have a silhouette of a human torso with target rings on its chest. The “x-ring” is about five inches across in the middle of the chest. You’re supposed to aim at “center of mass” - the middle of the target.
We’d shoot at different ranges from twenty-five yards down to two yards. Part of the qualification was having to shoot and reload within a time limit. All rounds are shot from the holster.
In addition to the revolver, you had to qualify every year with a shotgun. There was also a rifle qualification but that was optional and most people didn’t do that.
You may have seen one of the ranges I’ve qualified at. In the movie Super Troopers there’s a scene at a firing range. It was filmed at Fishkill Correctional Facility, where I worked at for several years.
Don’t know if this keeps with the OP, but I do some security and PI work on the side.
In order to carry a firearm while doing that I had to get a permit from the state Department of Regulations & Licensing.
This permit is absolutely ridiculous. First of all, it does not allow for carrying a concealed firearm (Wisconsin has no CCW whatsoever for civilians) unless you’re also a peace officer (security guards and private investigators are not peace officer).
So a guy like me can carry concealed while working as a guard or PI, but nobody else can. The permit only allows for open carry.
But wait…! Wisconsin is already an Open Carry state. You can already open carry without any need for any permit.:smack:
So the state permit for guards and PI’s is purely an administrative thing. If you want to work armed you have to have it. Even if you’re a cop.
Another ridiculous thing is that I have to take redundant training. The state won’t allow me to use the training I get at the police department for this permit. So first I had to take a 36 hour course. That’s only 4 hours less than cops get in the academy. The 36 hour course was pretty comprehensive for a civilian course. Lots of live fire and scenarios.
Then, once a year I have to take a 6 hour refresher. Once again, the state will not accept my police training in lieu of this. Absurd!
The 6 hour refresher is pretty simple. Just an overview of the basics and 50 rounds on the range at 15 yards.
Get caught working armed as a PI or guard without the permit and I believe it’s a $100 fine and they can suspend you’re guard or PI license. Like I said, it’s purely an administrative thing.
ETA: What’s really ridiculous is one of the instructors for the permit is also a Lieutenant at the PD I work at. He is also a firearms instructor at the PD. But the state will not allow him to just sign off for this stupid permit, I have to take the training even though it’s no where near as difficult as the training I get at the PD. Ridiculous!
It was a plot point in a movie (I want to say Jeremy Irons in Die Hard 3) where the bad guy is threatened by someone with pepper spray, and he calmly grabs the canister and pops a healthy load onto his tongue with absolutely no ill effects. He said he built up an immunity to it. Realistic or no?
When I worked armored in the Twin Cities, we had a route that went into western Wisconsin from our branch in St. Paul. I’m not sure whether or not those guys had to have a special permit for Wisconsin or not, although that might explain why it was always the same couple of guys and they didn’t put other people on that route.
The “shooting to wound” thing really isn’t this thread, but it’s simple. In the heat of combat, you don’t try stupid things like shooting for smaller (and possibly moving) targets. You shoot Center of Mass and you keep shooting until the threat ends. Which pretty much means that you shoot until the guy is dead, because he’s going to keep moving for quite a while until his brain realizes that the body is dead. Then there’s the increased risk of injury to bystanders if you get stupid and try to shoot a guy in the hand or leg and you either miss or it goes through the target. By now, every judge worth their position knows how this work and isn’t going to ask you why you killed the guy rather than shooting to wound. (And by my training, which was by a St. Paul SWAT Officer, if you ARE asked this question (most likely by the opposing Attorney), you answer “I shot center of mass, as I was trained, until the threat ended”)
For a few people, but not in that nonchalant way. Those that have an “immunity” to it simply don’t become incapacitated by it and can easily continue to fight on. It still may burn and be irritating to them, just not to the capacity it is for the rest of us. Even those people I know that got sprayed so many times they got used to it aren’t like that guy in the movie. That’s artistic licensing.
Most common pepper sprays have about 2 million scoville heat units. I got hit with this shit that had 5.3 million SHU. I swear I could feel the actual bone in my skull burning. Geezus Khrist!
Default is center of mass - if you’re shooting, you’re shooting to kill. The idea is proportionate response to threat. Shooting is in response to lethal or imminently lethal threat. Shooting for extremities or the head on a routine basis is an unreliable method - too easy to miss, not consistently lethal.
The wrinkle is in the emerging trend in the use of body armor, at times requiring head shots. There are times when head shots are necessary, but this is frequently in the realm of HRT/SWAT/Warrant/Entry work.
Yea, the time limits are pretty intense… hell, I don’t think I could’ve gotten a pass even when I was younger and faster. I was just showing how fast some people can be expected to shoot 
Point being, the OP’s scenario has 4 targets and
A minute? I could field strip and reassemble my pistol… and my rifle, take out the targets and STILL have time enough for a quickie with the GF before the clock runs out (at least according to her).
Yeah I wasn’t arguing against you, it’s just not every day I get to talk about that crazy course. The word I was searching for dawned on me later… the Sky Marshal course is like a “quick draw” course.