I Pit America's Pitiful and Cowardly Culture of Gunnism

The BBQ Pit
1

I respect that some people need guns for self-defense. When my wife and I debate getting a gun for home defense, I argue on the pro- side; she argues con-. A radical change in gun laws might save 400 lives annually and cost 200; or vice versa. Either way, the effect of the legislation would be insignificant compared with reforms to ACA which might save tens of thousands of lives, or environmental or geopolitical dangers much larger still. Guns are a minor issue in America that get a hundred times the attention they merit. Even here at the SDMB, otherwise relatively intelligent, political debates on a wide spectrum of topics end up focusing on Guns!

I’ve used the word “Gunnism” to describe America’s culture. It seems appropriate to consider gun culture a religion; it certainly seems to have that character for many Americans. Yes, “Gunnism” gets only 496 Google hits, but “guns”+“Jesus” gets 29.5 Million hits. Sarah Palin tweeted “Jesus is a proponent of carrying.” She’s not the only right-wing idiot to assert that the Second Amendment is a uniquely Christian doctrine.

Most of the images that turn up in a Jesus-Gun search are sarcastic, but the U.S. did award a $660 million contract to Trijicon for gun sights blessed with coded scripture references, e.g. JN8:12: “Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” The “Jesus Saves” atop this mailbox may be photoshopped in, but even without it, the mailbox is a dismal tribute to America’s Gunnism.

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If I don’t have a problem with legitimate self-defense, then what am I complaining about? Police, to start with. One policeman was awoken at home by a sound in his garage, was too cowardly to turn on the light so fired blindly at the “intruder,” who turned out to be his daughter. Another policeman responded to a health emergency, was startled by a smallish dog, fired and missed the dog, severely injuring a human toddler. Other policemen pull over blacks, demand ID, then shoot the black dead when he reaches for his ID. If our cops, supposedly trained, are this pathetic and cowardly, how can we imagine that a proliferation of guns among stupid white people is a good idea?

… And yes, I write “white people.” The very same people who make a religion of gun-carrying by white Christians would often shoot first and ask questions later if they saw a black or Muslim carrying a gun.

I think cowardly murderous cops should be dismissed or locked up, but they might be less eager to kill if it weren’t that so many Americans are armed.

I Pit the cowardly twerp George Zimmerman, who picked a fight with a black boy, but with the secret knowledge he was bringing a gun to a fist-fight. Right-wingers were so delighted to uphold the right of vigilante cowards to kill blacks that he got a dream team lawyer and was acquitted.

Would Zimmerman have been acquitted if he were black? Or if the victim were white? No, and No. (And I Pit anyone here too stupid to know guilty verdicts would be most likely in those cases – sure, a few rare exceptions can be dredged up.)

I have a friend who was attacked in a bar two-against-one. In self-defense he reached for his knife, and ended up threatened with a charge of attempted murder. Had he a gun instead of knife, he’d probably have been looking at a murder rap. Yes, most of the SDMB gun toters would have had the sense and money to hire an expensive lawyer and avoid the murder rap, but this is often not an option for someone poor, or of a discriminated-against ethnic group. Is this what Gun Rights mean for many affluent white Americans? One law for the elite, another for the underclass? You’ll say No, but the factual reality is different.

I don’t want to paint everyone with the same broad brush. I’m certain that most gun owners are responsible, and as I said, I see gun control as a non-solution. So let me Pit the Democrats who have wasted huge political capital on this stupid issue; now we have President Donald Trump — potentially a huge tragedy — whose election resulted directly from the millions of Americans who stupidly base their votes primarily on gun rights. Especially laughable is that Bernie Sanders, an anti-gun socialist, was condemned in the Democratic debates not for his socialism, but because he wasn’t anti-gun enough! :smack:

I started to recount some incidents where manly courage was demonstrated outside U.S.A. in vehement confrontations but without guns or physical violence, but the details are irrelevant. The point is — these incidents are increasingly unimaginable in Gunnist America. Cowardice and gun toting go hand in hand. Heroes without guns are likely to end up shot dead. Is this the America we want?

One Doper told us he can’t travel to Europe much as he’d like to – he’d be afraid to travel without his gun! I’ve wandered, always unarmed, in the seedy parts of cities in a half-dozen countries but the only times I felt frightened (and indeed did have some close calls) were in the U.S.A.

Gun owners who collect guns like others collect postage stamps?
– I have no problem with them, though it’s laughable to pretend the Founding Fathers were thinking about them.

Gun owners who enjoy hearing loud bangs at the target range? Or killing pheasants or deer?
– I have no problem with them. There are worse vices and perversions.

Gun owners who carry large sums of money through sordid neighborhoods?
– I have no problem with them, but do wonder if they have alternatives.

Gun owners afraid to leave the U.S. and travel to countries that haven’t gotten Jesus’ message about gun rights?
– I’m glad you stay home in God’s Gun Country. Americans abroad have a bad enough reputation as it is.

But gun owners who justify their fetish with “Because I choose to, because I have that legal right” ?
– I have only contempt for you. You blindly follow a religious dogma without the intelligence to articulate purpose. I’d forgive your stupidity if you only had the good grace to stay home on Election Days.
Let me close with a hypothetical question for the Gunnists: If you could wave a magic wand and either have everyone in the U.S.A. armed or have everyone in the U.S.A. unarmed, which would you pick?
(But if the only answer you can think of is “Blah blah … second amendment … blah blah” keep your ignorantly dogmatic trap shut.)

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Maybe if you could explain better what you mean by “gun culture”. We are certainly a culture where there are guns, but I’m not clear how you’ve distilled the entire culture down to just guns.

I think you’ll find that the culture of speaking freely, peacefully assembling and petitioning the government for redress of grievances is far far more widespread than gun ownership.

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I didn’t know that I was “distilling the entire culture down to just guns” and apologize if that’s what I’ve done. If I spoke of “SDMB’s culture of pedantry” would that mean the entire SDMB culture was about pedantry, and didn’t include discussion of guns?

Living mainly in Berkeley and other Bay Area towns I didn’t experience the gun culture first-hand. I don’t recall ever seeing an American gun brandished by a non-cop. The few American criminals I knew carried knives if anything. The only time I remember seeing an American civilian carrying gun was at a … bridge tournament! :smack: I remember this because of my partner (risking his life by?) asking if it was a “surrogate penis.”

Much of my contact with Flyover-state Americans has been here in Thailand! One Texan has visited several times a few miles from my home. His only discussions of politics in my presence have been (1) saying “When Obama comes for my gun I’m going to cram it up his ass!” and (2) a comment something like

[QUOTE=Texan who has visited his wife’s home in rural Thailand]
I’m so proud to live in Texas. If someone tries to steal anything from my yard, even an old TV set that’s broken and worthless, I have the right to shoot him in the back even when he’s already taken it off my property. I’d aim the first shot at center-of-mass, then get closer and finish him with a head-shot.
[/QUOTE]

There was another American and an Aussie present when the Texan made these comments. The other American looked at me (I was trying to keep a poker face) and then said he had a machete hidden in every room of his house to deal with intruders.

The gun issue motivates millions of voters and led directly to the November 8 tragedy. Discussions of U.S. politics at SDMB often turn into yet another gun debate. If this isn’t “gun culture”, I wonder what “gun culture” would look like.

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I’d just like to say that is one awesome mailbox.

5

Gun culture can be kind of a drag. But the rape culture makes up for it.

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I don’t read it that way. American gun culture means a culture that embraces guns as an integral part of society, as opposed to a culture that considers them to be dangerous tools that should be heavily restricted to very specific circumstances. It’s a vast difference in attitude.

There is no doubt what they’d say. They love their guns, they think they’re fun and empowering and consider them a birthright, and they feel much safer owning guns even knowing that everyone else can have them, too, despite all the statistical evidence to the contrary which they are always trying to deny.

The other lunacy that pervades this thought process is the idea that guns empower them against the evils of government, because if, say, the federal government does something they don’t like, they somehow imagine that they and their friends can go down to Washington with their guns and overthrow the federal government. Every single thing about the gun culture is fundamentally irrational and flies in the face of mountains of both domestic and international evidence.

7

Yeah, but as a postal carrier, how would feel about reaching in to retrieve or deposit mail? Especially the first time you found it on your route? :eek:

I’m what folks on this MB would probably call a “gun grabber”, but I’m not seeing how a hypothetical that involves magic is informative about how policy should be made in a world where magic doesn’t exist.

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It’s informative in understanding the culture and what it says about the desired end state. If gun nuts answer the hypothetical as I am certain they would, it tells us that effective gun control is virtually impossible without a major culture change, because gun nuts are opposed to its fundamental goals.

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I guess we’l have to agree to disagree. If you need magic for your policy to work (and here you do need magic), then rejecting that as a solution only tells you that the person doesn’t believe in magic.

Alternatively, you can explain to us how you eliminate guns and keep them eliminated without the use of magic. I’d love to hear it.

Or, it says that there never, ever, ever a legitimate use for a gun. Which is ridiculous.

10

I suppose because the more “realistic” question (in the sense of no use of magic, not of plausibility), which would be:
Whether (y)our ideal utopian world would be one in which under all circumstances one would count on *everyone *to be armed with guns or one in which one could count on *nobody *being armed with guns.
…would quickly face one of two challenges: a fighting-the-hypothetical one as to how you could never really know for sure and you’d end up in the shoes of the Europe-avoiding wuss who feels naked if unarmed; or, a more rational one about how then you’d have to worry if people are or are not carrying knives or knuckedusters, or if there are loose paving stones or fence slats within easy reach. Which latter argument is why I too find the question unproductive. Some people use as their starting premise that it’s a jungle out there and any risk is too damn much (mind you, pro-armed and ANTI-armed factions both fall into that).

That said, sure, making guns a single-issue dealbreaker in policy and lifestyle is narrow- and shortsighted, and if Palin did say that guntoting is a particularly Christian practice, well, that’s just more evidence of her astonishing mental processes.

As to the theory of a people’s uprising, I’ll make the bold prediction that we will see groups like the Oath “Keepers” make a graceful 180 turn and become the biggest advocates for how we should peacefully obey all orders from authorities, starting next month.

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OK, let’s imagine that we all agree that it would be great if someone could wave a magic wand and eliminate all guns. What policy do we implement based on that? Beats me.

Now, let’s say Joe disagrees. He doesn’t want a world without any guns because, well, then we’re back to knives, swords and bows and arrows. Is there any evidence that the homicide rate was lower back in the days when this was the case? We certainly know that in a world with only primitive H/Gs that the homicide rate was higher than it is in the US today. Now, they didn’t have swords, but they had lethal weapons like knives and bows/arrows nonetheless. And how, exactly, does a country without guns protect itself from invasion by other countries? Do we want to rely on our superior bow technology? No thanks.

So: 1) unless you actually have magic, then it’s unclear to me how you would create a world that didn’t have guns. And 2) even if you HAVE magic, it’s not clear how such a world would be better.

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John, I think you’re reading far too much into the specific wording of that hypothetical. In my interpretation, it’s really just a short-hand way of asking something like “would you favor a policy of stronger restrictions on gun acquisitions with the long-term goal of reducing the number of guns already in circulation through attrition, buy-backs, or other means?” And no one imagines that there could or should ever be a society with literally no guns. IMO the hypothetical simply asks if the person supports the goal of reduced gun proliferation. At least, that’s how I answered it when I imagined how the typical gun nut would respond.

13

That’s why we need to maintain the Trebuchet Nonproliferation Treaty and the Greek Fire Convention.
Getting back to the other parts of the OP though, yes, there are “gun culture” fans who do seem to find nothing wrong with “shoot first, ask questions later”, and some of the more colorful ones will come up with the quoted “I can shoot him in the back even after he has fled my property” attitude, and *that *probably has responsible gun advocates face-palming. Up to them to deal with that, really.

And sure, you could put a lot of people in an uncomfortable corner by asking if they advocate that EVERYONE be armed, does this mean EVERYONE – including, y’know, them people. Whoever is “them people” in the given context. But there will always be an excuse or an explanation.

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If you’re going to pit the “American Gun Culture” I believe you are only looking at half issue if you fail to mention the fetishization of guns in popular American media. Far too many gun owners that I have meet have zero practical experience with their weapons and have gathered all their information from Quinton Tarantino movies and NCIS episodes where the good guy always wins the shootout. Hollywood spreads ignorance and fear so fast than gun manufacturers can barely keep up. It doesn’t help the debate to lump those who take the time to learn to use these tools properly and safely in with the folks who get all their training from fictional stories.

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If you EVER see a gun brandished by anybody, cop or no, either (A) he’s a criminal, or (B) he’s responding to something very bad that is happening and you need to seek cover on the double.

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I’m in kinda a weird position. I own 11 guns, but I did not buy one of them.

They are either inherited, or guns I was given when from my dad when I was younger, and one that was a gift.

Oh, I like target and skeet shooting, but I really don’t do that much anymore since selling a 40 acre property.

We do live in a remote area. We have two acres and no neighbors. But it’s just not a proper place to shoot. I do like the idea of having a gun for defense. 911 isn’t going to help much where we live (nor anyone really). I have used a gun to scare bears off our property when they where stalking out our house. Bears have broken into my shed twice.

What should I do with the 100 year old rifle that my Grandfather used to shoot? It was my first gun when I was 9 years old.

I donno. But I’m starting to think about this. I may give most of them to a brother in law that lives on 70 acres in Texas. He’s a very responsible guy, and one of his sons also likes to shoot. I’ll have to figure out how to transfer them. Not one of the guns is registered, they don’t need to be. But I don’t think I can just ship them to him without some proper transfer paperwork.

17

I don’t have much to say to the OP, but I was struck by his/her obsession with knives. I believe he mentions them at least a couple times, suggesting (?) that knives might be more acceptable or a more reasoned response to a threat.

In my state (NC), it’s actually quite a bit more difficult to carry any weapon other than a handgun or rifle. To carry a concealed handgun, for example, you get a permit to carry a “concealed handgun,” not a “concealed weapon.” Butterfly knives, sword canes, and even large folding knives are prohibited from concealed carry under any circumstances. Even nunchuks and brass knuckles are prohibited.

Assaults with knives are actually pretty common.

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In 1992 Los Angeles Riots every Liberal I knew that did not have a Firearm wanted one and could not get one (Unless they borrowed one from a Family Member or Friend who had some ) due to Draconian California Firearms Restrictions like then 15 day wait period . As a holder of a current California CCW and collector & shooter of Military Style Firearms and some time assistant to a Gun Show vendor/Tactical Training School owner I can honestly say that folks under 40 have no idea how vast and pervasive the Gun Culture was in California and America . It is still very strong with 325-350 Million Firearms in private hands .

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Hey, Donpeyote, I know just exactly how “vast and pervasive” the gun culture is in America. That’s why there are over 32,000 gun deaths a year from all causes, including close to about 12,000 gun homicides and 74,000 serious injuries from gun nuts waving around their proxy dick extensions and shooting themselves and each other every single year. According to the CDC the US suffers more childhood gun fatalities than the 12 other advanced industrialized countries in the study put together.

20

I’ve lived all over the United States and every place I’ve lived, there have been hunters … where I live now there’s a lot of hunters … sunrise on the first day of long rifle season the sounds of gunfire permeate the country-side …

I spend some years growing up in rural Central California … in every way it was an agricultural culture … and there were guns there on the wall … now there’s a certain time of year when the jackrabbits move in and start eating the crops … we’d grab the guns and go shoot them … that’s what farmers do … they shoot the vermin eating the product …

Under no circumstances did we plant crops to attract jackrabbits so we could shoot them … neither did we plow our fields so we could spray herbicides all over the place … is it really fair to say we are a “gun culture” or a “spray herbicide culture”?

We do have quite a bit of a “hunter’s culture” … so obviously there’s guns involved … and I have no doubt many who do regularly hunt do so for the fun of shooting their guns … but the culture is all about the hunting … as demonstrated by bow season opening two weeks early, muzzleloader season one week early … then the long rifle season starts … it’s about the hunt, not some debate over some grossly outdated Constitutional amendment … and just how good that elk steak tastes after a long afternoon butchering …

In summary, we are not a “gun culture”, rather we are a culture that includes guns … and have so from the beginning … the 18th Century frontiersman’s best friend was his long rifle … a frontier unknown in historical Europe …

[quote]
wolfpup - [snip] … According to the CDC the US suffers more childhood gun fatalities than the 12 other advanced industrialized countries in the study put together.[/snip]

Is this in absolute numbers, or per capita? …