And if thorny_locust and I had been engaged in a good faith conversation, the way I’ve been able to do with ThingFish or Puzzlegal, then that’s precisely how I would have reacted.
That’s not how I interpreted the post from ThornyLocust, which felt more like a “gotcha”. The reason it felt like a gotcha is because ThornyLocust opened her post by misrepresenting my position, claiming I think sex is a binary, when I have been very clear this entire time that this is not the case, and that I do recognize that there are trans women who underwent medical treatment in a way that does make it fair for them to participate in women’s sports, and when I have certainly never denied the existence of intersex people, or the need for sporting organizations to make these decisions.
So it certainly rubbed me the wrong way to be straw manned like that.
I generally try to match people’s energy. If you have a respectful conversation with me, I will have a respectful conversation with you. If that’s not what you’re looking for, that’s fine; I will meet you where you are.
If that’s not what ThornyLocust was trying to do, and they’d like to deescalate, we can certainly have a respectful conversation. But if someone is snippy towards me, I don’t view being civil towards them as particularly virtuous.
In the interest of offering an olive branch, taking the comment as if it was meant in good faith rather than a gotcha attempt:
That implication was definitely not my intention. I post from my phone, and for the vast majority of SDMB conversations, I’m communicating as I would during a casual conversation. I’m not really proofreading my posts, nor am I taking a level of care in formulating responses that would allow careful line-by-line readings to glean any hidden meaning. I am always happy to clarify what I meant if asked.
That’s the heart of it. I don’t think you succeed. I’ve had multiple interactions with you where you drastically misread my energy, and I’ve seen you do it with other people so often, that it makes it really really hard to treat your own posts as being in good faith. You jump to mockery, sarcasm, and contempt way faster than you need to IMO.
If you gave people like three times the benefit of the doubt that you’re currently giving them, IMO it’d be a lot easier to engage with you. Maybe ask clarifying questions if you think someone is saying something dumb or offensive.
Obviously others should do that for you as well. You’re not calling for trans Holocaust–although I agree that you repeatedly minimize and dismiss the very real concerns that trans folk have, in large part out of an unwillingness to grant folks the benefit of the doubt when they say things. Nevertheless, others should grant you the benefit of the doubt as well.
What the fuck?! How dare you accuse me of not arguing in good faith?
I was not doing any such thing. I said you were trying to draw a bright line between boys’/men’s sports and girls’/women’s sports on the basis of sex, and that that bright line doesn’t work because there is no such bright line between those groups of humans.
I do not think it qualifies as de-escalation to accuse me of arguing in bad faith.
If you’re going to be careless about your language, fine. But if you’re going to be careless about your language, I advise not getting so “snippy” when somebody points out the carelessness.
And I specifically said that you might not have meant the implication, but that it might just be a habit of speech.
I’ve raised 4 children. In many activities, sports, drama, cheerleading, band. We won’t go into the extracurricular stuff they did.
I’ve met very few teens that would be brave enough to stand apart from their peers to make a stand on anything much, for fear of reprisal. Not from the adults, from their peers!
These are adults making these decisions. Not the kids.
I can’t imagine many kids are fully transitioned by highschool. College?, I’m sure there are some. Are they elite athletes? Had time to retrain after their full surgerys to really compete?
I don’t see it.
If you didn’t have boobs for 16 years, now you do, your training will be different. It just will be.
Don’t dispute this unless you’ve had the upper surgery. And then had the bottom surgery. These are major surgeries. It will change your body.
Your athletic ability will be different.
Maybe better, maybe not.
Either way, until a major pro sports team is ready to offer contracts to trans folks its all moot.
I didn’t want to respond to her. Maybe I’ll respond to her when we have a “Will Kerosine Soaked Bibles start Firepits? Do you need One or Two…?”
I’ll save the baseball bat for when any ICE Team tries to take any member of my family away from my home. And I won’t care What language they are mumbling. I don’t care What language you teach or what house of worship you Foul: Acting like a NAZI and terrorizing people as a NAZI.. MAKES YOU A NAZI, Wolfsangel.
Not religious. Atheist, actually. Just so you’re aware you’re spreading lies about me.
I’m actually, saying it once!, I believe people should chose who they are. If they want to transition they should be able to. My family, your family, all peoples.
If they are allowed to play on athletic teams in their own jurisdiction I’m happy as I can be for them.
I just don’t think we can just say its So. Without considering all aspects.
This. You seem to have an extremely broken faith-meter. I have known @thorny_locust for longer than I’ve been on this website, and i don’t believe I’ve ever seen her argue in bad faith. She certainly wasn’t then. She posts in much better faith tHaNyOuDo.
And your example of bad faith is when I mock people with alternate caps?
Cool, I can see that we will never see eye to eye. If you think using text to convey a tone of voice is bad faith, but popping into a convo to insinuate that someone else doesn’t see women as people is not, then I really don’t have much else to say to you.
You and I clearly have very different sets of priorities and worldviews.
I think you use random capitalization to show contempt. And yes, people who are contemptuous are rarely arguing in good faith.
Pointing out that you wrote in a way to suggest women don’t count as people is actually adding content. It’s an observation that you can respond to in various ways, including saying, “whoops, i can see how it might look that way”. She even offered that you might have phrased it that way unintentionally:
When people criticize my posts, i try to consider whether maybe they have a point, or misunderstood me, or… I don’t jump to insulting them. Because i try to discuss matters in good faith.
And if I thought they were coming from a place of good faith, I’d have treated that post that way too. But as I noted, the post began by strawmanning my position, so forgive me if I wasn’t predisposed to treat it charitably.
Then you must never think anything is coming from a place of good faith, because you frequently default to coming off as an asshole regardless of any other poster’s intent. You don’t debate, you insult and antagonize.
