I Pit Babale

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

Then why? What is the evidence for such a sweeping, Rumsfeldian declaration?

I’m not making any sweeping declarations. I’ve just seen many interviews with Venezuelans on the news and on social media where they are quite happy.

@Smapti

I care about our president usurping Congress’ authority and starting a war for no other reason than “I wanna”, and I care about the idea that somehow the US has the right to unilaterally involve itself in another country’s internal affairs when it poses no threat to us.

These are all very valid reasons to oppose this action as it was done, as I said above:

@Babale

I don’t think America should do that sort of thing alone or on a whim, mind you; I don’t like the way that Trump went about this because it makes strong allyships and cooperation with other countries less likely, not more. Diplomatically, I don’t think this was the right move or that it’s likely to be beneficial on a global scale on the long term.

I’m not saying I agree with this action or with Trump undertaking it. Literally all I am saying is that it’s silly to act like the outcome of Maduro’s capture itself is automatically going to be disastrous for Venezuela just because Trump sucks or because this gives the president more powers that he should not have that could be further abused in the future.

It’s entirely possible that removing Maduro leads to a successful outcome for Venezuela and that the continued erosion of congressional oversight of the president’s war powers proves to be disastrous in the future (potentially the very near future).

[Babale]

@iiandyiiii

Careful! He might call you a tankie!

Nah, he’s not acting like a fucking idiot. He’s raising very valid criticism that I completely agree with.

[Smapti]

@Babale

It’s entirely possible that removing Maduro leads to a successful outcome for Venezuela

Considering our track record when it comes to removing South American heads of state, I’m not very optimistic about it.

[iiandyiiii]

@Babale

I’m not making any sweeping declarations. I’ve just seen many interviews with Venezuelans on the news and on social media where they are quite happy.

So you don’t believe “Venezuelans are ecstatic” in general? You’re just saying “some non-zero number of Venezuelans appear to be happy about this”?

If the latter, how does this provide any useful information on which to judge the success of this incident?

[iiandyiiii]

Funny how these “very valid criticisms” are almost identical to some of mine!

[iiandyiiii]

Sure, the rule of law is being utterly trashed by Trump and his clowns, both with this military operation and in general, and civilians were killed, but on the other hand, some non-zero number of Venezuelans appear to be happy, so maybe that makes it worth it?

[iiandyiiii]

Great point here:

Where does Trump's military adventurism stop? What are the consequences of that to the US?

When countries start fearing the United States, they will seek alliances with Russia or China to protect themselves. The next President will have to deal with the problem of Chinese military bases in Mexico.

Sure, the rest of the world might start to see the US as dangerous adversaries, but on the other hand…?

[crowmanyclouds]

@Babale

We even have the idiotic oil memes again.

Yes, but the one where Trump says we are there to get our oil back is the best one.

[MrDibble]

@Babale

It’s entirely possible that removing Maduro leads to a successful outcome for Venezuela

You can not be this fucking naive, it has to just be performative reflex at this point.
When has unilateral US-imposed regime change ever had a good outcome?

[Babale]

@MrDibble

When has unilateral US-imposed regime change ever had a good outcome?

Germany? Japan? Panama? Grenada? South Korea? Fuck, even Iraq is far better off today than it was under Saddam, for all that America fucked up the postwar rebuilding period.

[MrDibble]

Germany? Japan? Do you know what unilateral means?

Panama, ok. That’s not a bad one. Grenada, though? Naah. Good for the US and other colonial powers is not the same as good.

What regime change are you talking about in South Korea? Certainly not the Korean War.

But do you expect anyone to take you seriously with Iraq as a good outcome?

[Babale]

@MrDibble

But do you expect anyone to take you seriously with Iraq as a good outcome?

No, I’m well aware of how brain rotten you are over interventionism due to your idiotic view of what happened in Iraq. I don’t expect you to be capable of properly engaging with the fact that Iraq is indeed much better off today than it was under Saddam, all that you are capable of is incoherent screeching about Bush and Oil.

[MrDibble]

1. I’d love to see you quote me posting about Bush and oil.
2. Iraq today was not the outcome of the US regime change. The Daesh caliphate was.

[Gyrate]

Oh look - Babale is once again defending the unlawful use of military force. No surprises there.

@Babale

Civilian casualties are always bad.

Unless they live in Gaza, of course.

[Babale]

@MrDibble

Iraq today was not the outcome of the US regime change. The Daesh caliphate was.

I don’t know if you quite grasp how the linear flow of time works, but in fact, both the temporary ISIS caliphate and the subsequent Iraqi state are outcomes of the war in Iraq.

[Babale]

@Gyrate

@Babale

Civilian casualties are always bad.

Unless they live in Gaza, of course.

Civilian casualties in Gaza are also bad, you lying piece of shit.

[Gyrate]

…says the lying piece of shit who has constantly justified (or just outright denied) their suffering and deaths.

[MrDibble]

Skip over the proximate outcome and only focus on one arbitrary temporary later state as the outcome. Gotcha.

Using the most self-serving and ideological lens to view history is very on-brand for you, at least.

As is thinking ignoring the points you were clearly wrong about like Korea, Germany, Japan means no-one noticed.

[Babale]

@MrDibble

As is thinking ignoring the points you were clearly wrong about like Korea, Germany, Japan means no-one noticed.

What am I wrong about there? That it wasn’t unilateral American action? Neither was Iraq, and as I said multiple times I don’t have a problem with criticizing the way that Trump went about this (not working with other nations, not running this by Congress, etc). I just think the Maduro apologia is disgusting and his being gone is in fact a good thing.

@MrDibble

Using the most self-serving and ideological lens to view history is very on-brand for you, at least.

…that’s rich coming from Mr Colonialism. You literally have a single (particularly myopic) lens (oppressor/oppressed dynamics) that you view all of existence through.

[Chronos]

@Babale

You must think that Trump’s people must be hypercompetent if they pulled this off with “no apparent planning”; I don’t think quite so highly of them, so I’d say quite a bit of planning is very apparent.

All they need to be competent is to have the US military following their orders. In a war as lopsided as the US vs. Venezuela, for a single operation like one kidnapping, brute force is all the plan that’s needed.

@Babale

As I said, I don’t trust that Trump has a plan here, which is why I think it’s very possible that he will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and fuck this up rather than help Venezuela get to a successful outcome.

Oh, wait, I guess you already know that. I’ll let you argue that one out with that @Babale guy, then.