On Maduro… reports are coming in that the strikes have killed Venezuelan civilians. Would you say this is bad? Or because Maduro’s bad, this is okay and worth the civilian deaths?
Civilian casualties are always bad.
Civilian casualties are never “okay” nor are they “ok” or “OK”.
Whether civilian casualties are justifiable since they were caused by appropriate use of military force against valid military targets is a separate question from the above displays of a 3rd grader’s grasp of geopolitics, I don’t know that enough details are available to make that call about Venezuela yet but I haven’t seen any evidence that there was unjustifiable force used against invalid targets.
Whether attacking Maduro in this way at all was good idea remains to be seen. It seems like a much bigger gamble than I would have been comfortable with, were I in Trump’s shoes, but it went off pretty well in terms of execution, and it remains to be seen what geopolitical results are actually accomplished.
What was your analysis of the situation like? Let’s see:
Gee, I wonder why I think you’re on the America Bad train to Tankieville…
Are you really this fucking stupid? Name one human being in Trump’s cabinet that you trust with this kind of monumental decision making to start a fucking war with Venezuela over what appears to be nothing but Trumpian conspiracy theories (the 2020 election? fentanyl? etc.).
You really believes it “remains to be seen” whether this was a wise decision? What percent chance would you offer that Trump and his clowns stumbled into a smart war with a country that posed absolutely zero threat to our security?
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. I didn’t say that I trust anyone in Trump’s cabinet to make a smart decision.
Yes, obviously. If you asked me a week ago if the US could pull this type of mission off, I’d have guessed no, and that they wouldn’t even try. So the fact that they succeeded means that yes, it might end up working out. Obviously if 60 marines got slaughtered outside of Maduro’s bunker in an intense firefight, it would already be clear this was a disaster; but since the mission was accomplished without a hitch, it still could succeed. What part of that are you doubting?
Maduro is an illiberal scumbag piece of shit who deserves to be deposed. We agree on that much, right?
If this leads to Venezuela having elections where the winner is actually made president, this would be a good thing, right?
It’s not clear that this will be the result, despite how well arresting Maduro went, because Trump is a buffoon who very well could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. If this was anyone else, I wouldn’t say it remains to be seen if this was a success, I’d say it already looks pretty dang successful.
What part of that do you actually disagree with?
You’ve lost your fucking mind. We truly live on different planets. I remember all the other wars in my life that, in the first days, supposedly went great and were accomplishing everything they were supposed to. Apparently you forgot everything after that. But it’s Trump and Hegseth, not Bush and Rumsfeld this time, so everything’s going to be even better, right?
Jesus fucking Christ. It’s the same fucking Boss Baby meme again. “This is just like the Iraq War”, said the guy who has only ever seen the Iraq war. We even have the idiotic oil memes again.
I notice that you didn’t answer any of my questions.
You do agree that Maduro is a piece of shit and an illegitimate election usurping dictator who deserves to be deposed whether or not it’s a good idea to do so, right?
You do agree that if this ends in elections in Venezuela that would be a good thing, right?
Or does the fact that the Venezuelan opposition praised Trump taint them forever and mean that maybe Maduro isn’t so bad?
Maduro’s a piece of shit. So is Trump, by the way. So is Netanyahu, for that matter. So are many, many others, including lots of other heads of state. Do you think it’s wise to start a war with all those countries? Or because Trump’s a piece of shit, maybe Canada and Europe should join together and attack us and take Trump away?
I can’t believe I have to spell this shit out – maybe starting a war over nothing, with no apparent planning, isn’t smart? Maybe legitimizing kidnapping heads of states of other countries could have negative ramifications? Maybe killing civilians when there’s no security threat to the United States is atrocious and will add to negative feelings around the world for the US?
But then, on the other hand, maybe Trump and Hegseth have a great hidden plan that’s going to result in a bright future for Venezuela…?
Deposing a dictator who illegitimately usurped elections in his country isn’t “over nothing”, and there clearly was a lot of planning that went into this operation; claiming otherwise is literally insane. You must think that Trump’s people must be hypercompetent if they pulled this off with “no apparent planning”; I don’t think quite so highly of them, so I’d say quite a bit of planning is very apparent.
I think it would be wise if America, the European Union, and countries like Japan, South Korea, and Australia took a much firmer stance in protecting the interests of the free world, and yes, that includes fighting alongside Ukraine and deposing dictatorships. I don’t think America should do that sort of thing alone or on a whim, mind you; I don’t like the way that Trump went about this because it makes strong allyships and cooperation with other countries less likely, not more. Diplomatically, I don’t think this was the right move or that it’s likely to be beneficial on a global scale on the long term. But done correctly, I think military intervention against countries like Venezuela can be a very good thing, and it is bad that America and its allies have been so scarred by their experience in Iraq that they have become isolationist to a fault.
This is a nonsense argument. Russia does what Russia can get away with regardless of “legitimacy” or “norms” and pretending otherwise is foolish. And again, Maduro is not a legitimate head of state. He usurped a legitimate election, and there is no one in his own country who can hold him accountable. Comparing Maduro’s removal with the removal of someone who is a legitimate leader ignores a basic fact about the situation.
Do you think civilians would not have died if the only alternative means of removing Maduro - through civil war - was how things had gone?
From everything I’ve seen, Venezuelans are overwhelmingly happy that Maduro is gone.
Weird strawman. What the fuck are you talking about? Where did I claim that Trump and Hegseth have a brilliant anything? Are you OK?
Just think about it. We killed Venezuelan civilians. Why? That county posed zero threat to us. Not even the non-existential, but still real, non-zero threat Hamas is to Israel. No threat at all. And we killed civilians? Jesus fucking Christ. You’re okay with this? What if it had been your grandmother? Your cousin? It makes it maybe okay because they’re all total strangers?
Show me a single bit of evidence there’s any plan for what happens now. Obviously military operations are planned. It’s the aftermath I was talking about. What evidence that Trump planned for the long term here?
I can’t believe you’re just accepting what this administration is reporting about this.
And you skipped a couple of questions - should Canada and Europe join together to attack us and kidnap Trump? Should we do the same for all the other pieces of shit out there?
He posed a major threat to Venezuelans, who are ecstatic he is gone with such minimal casualties. Do you only care about threats to “us”?
Are you really this fucking senile?
Do you just ignore whatever parts of my posts don’t fit your fucking narrative, or what?
I am not “accepting what the administration is reporting on this”. As I said, I don’t trust that Trump has a plan here, which is why I think it’s very possible that he will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and fuck this up rather than help Venezuela get to a successful outcome.
Like Iraqis greeted us as liberators? I can’t believe you fall for this shit so easily.
… Should Canada and Europe join together to attack us and kidnap Trump? Should we do the same for all the other pieces of shit out there?
Trump is a legitimately elected president, so no. Had Trump stolen the 2020 election on Jan 6 and become an illegitimate president, I’d probably be thankful if some other country showed up to arrest him rather than the US erupting into civil war or falling into full on dictatorship.
Why are you lying about me? I did answer this:
Yeah, @Babale , if dictatorships are so bad, we should start with our own.
Vietnam. Afghanistan. Iraq. Venezuela. A great history of “success” fighting “dictatorships.” And how come it’s always only the ones who the US perceives as not being able to fight back?
My apologies. You’re still a dumb warmonger, and I can’t believe you’re falling for shit like “Venezuelans are ecstatic” with pretty much zero actual evidence.
You’re either extremely stupid or a bad faith liar:
So you don’t believe that Venezuelans are ecstatic, despite saying they are?
Not because the administration said so, no.
Then why? What is the evidence for such a sweeping, Rumsfeldian declaration?
I care about our president usurping Congress’ authority and starting a war for no other reason than “I wanna”, and I care about the idea that somehow the US has the right to unilaterally involve itself in another country’s internal affairs when it poses no threat to us.
Careful! He might call you a tankie!