FWIW the ADL has historically been a fantastic organization, deserving of love; they have lost their way thinking that Trump’s actions are those of an ally in any actual fight against antisemitism.
A good friend is lawyer who had been a long time volunteer working with the ADL, very proud that that while the work of course is focused most on fighting hate targeting Jews it had been a strong force against bigotry and hate across the board, for example advocating strongly against Muslim hate after 9/11: she recently resigned her post.
The Seig Heil defense was though was a cutting slack on what it was meant to be, not a defense of it. And it was subsequently walked back:
Traditionally the ADL was solidly center Left but over time it has become increasingly focused on defending Israel and conflating criticism of Israeli action with antisemitism even as the actions have become indefensible in the minds of many American Jews, including those like me who self describe as “Zionists.” Their allowing themselves to be used by Trump is shameful but I still disagree with the brush you seem to be painting them with
This is my opinion, too. I think Trump and maga are an enormously greater threat than whatever antisemitism they currently claim to be fighting. I never noticed any antisemitism in my daily life until Trump. And he encourages the worst of them.
They are tools of Trump, Netanyahu, and allies. They’re no longer a pro-civil-rights and anti-bigotry organization. That they did great things in the past doesn’t remotely absolve what they’re doing at present.
And Greenblatt barely walked back the Musk thing. That was just a version of “I’m sorry if you were offended” or something. He’s made very clear that he sees Trump and co as allies, and the left as enemies.
People can change, as can organizations, as can governments. ADL absolutely did great work in the past. So did the Teamsters. But when leadership changes and when policy changes, my opinion of the group will likewise change.
If ADL stops supporting a genocidal government, I can resume respecting them. But they are–we all are–what we do.
To a large degree even in that portrayal of what they do, yeah, this bit:
are antisemitic when they vilify and negate Zionism
I am a Zionist but being against Zionism is not necessarily antisemitic. More broadly the support of Trump’s vilification of anti Israel protests as antisemitism counts.
And the specific one where they lost me was their support of Khalil’s deportation.
U.S. Jewish groups and leaders and organizations have been divided in their response to Khalili’s detention.
Among those welcoming the move was the Anti-Defamation League, which said it hopes it serves as a “deterrent.”
“We appreciate the Trump Administration’s broad, bold set of efforts to counter campus antisemitism — and this action further illustrates that resolve by holding alleged perpetrators responsible for their actions,” the ADL said on social media.
Amy Spitalnick, CEO of Jewish Council for Public Affairs, decried Khalil’s detention.
The Trump administration “is exploiting real concerns about antisemitism to undercut democracy: from gutting education funding to deporting students to attacking diversity, equity, & inclusion,” she wrote on Bluesky. “As we’ve repeatedly said: this makes Jews — & so many others — less safe.”
Right, when you equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, then anti-Zionist demonstrations account for the vast majority of “anti-Semitic incidents”. As I discussed in the other thread, the ADL has a whole online dossier talking at length about how awful Jewish Voice for Peace are. When you’re accusing Jews of being antisemites based on their political views, you have seriously lost the thread.
Of course anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic. How could being against the self determination of the Jewish people possibly not be anti-Semitic?
The lie that “Zionism” means “unquestioning support for the current Israeli government and undying hatred for Palestinians” is also anti-Semitic. It exists to delegitimize the movement for self determination for the Jewish people.
I used to think that the two could (at least in theory) be separated; I am no longer convinced.
Note that criticism of Israel is not the same thing as anti-Zionism; anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should cease to exist because it is a Jewish state. That is anti-Semitic.
Being against having an individual nation based on some specific religious or ethnic membership is not antisemitic. No question there are those whose antiZionism IS antisemitism, but one does not define the other.
I AM still a Zionist AND I am not necessarily FOR Israel right now. I DO hear “from the river to the sea” as a call for extermination, as it was in historical context, AND I understand why some shouting it do not understand that meaning.
Anti-Zionists have no problem with individual nations based on specific religious or ethnic membership - you know, like the vast majority of countries outside the New World. Nobody is against the concept of Thailand or Egypt or Italy.
That sorry excuse for anti-Zionism is about as believable as “All Lives Matter”. Like, yes, obviously, they do - that’s not why you’re out here shouting “All Lives Matter” at BLM protestors, though.
If you show me an Anti-Zionist whose anti-Israeli activities are proportional to their activities against the 57 Muslim countries and 21 Christian countries (so that would be 1.2% of their activism, not counting countries that officially follow non-Abrahamic faiths) and I will believe you if you tell me they are not anti-Semitic.
But every anti-Zionist I’ve seen campaigns against the one Jewish state 100% of the time and has no issue with any state of any other religion. Except the secular United States of America, of course.
But equally, nobody is passionately committed to the concept that Thailand or Egypt or Italy MUST exist within their current borders or expanded ones forever, regardless of anything else that happens or how the governments of those nations behave. Nobody is against the concept of Germany or Japan, but, at a particular point in history, most people were very much in favor of the concept of temporarily depriving them of the right to self-government in the interests of the world in general and their neighbors in particular. National self-determination is, in the abstract, a good thing, but in practice it needs to be balanced against a lot of other theoretically good things.
Zionism is about Jewish self determination. It’s got nothing to do with revanchist bullshit like you mention. I’m a staunch Zionist and I still think we should carve out parts to give to the Palestinians for peace. The idea that Zionism demands expansion of borders or prevents a Palestinian state is yet another antisemitic lie you seem to have bought into.
And if you think that Thais or Egyptians or Italians aren’t passionately committed to the continued existence of Egypt, Thailand, or Italy then you really aren’t paying attention.
Either they don’t understand or are perfectly content calling for the abolition of Israel as a Jewish homeland. Proclaiming that one is anti-Zionist has exactly that meaning, as does chanting “from the river to the sea”.
It’s entirely possible and rational to condemn Israeli government policies without endorsing genocide.
Personally this isn’t a debate worth engaging in for me, rather bang my head against a Western Wall.
For the purposes of this thread, knowing Babale’s belief system is it really worth being in a Pit thread that he is a fan of an organization that agrees with him that being anti Zionist is equal to antisemitism? I mean of course he does, and there are many in the other direction too, who conflate what Israel does as being representative of Jews as a group.
I guess we have here another word that has largely had whatever meaning it had through history left by the wayside to be repurposed as a snarl word or even a club to hit others with.
Though ISTM the definition has been getting abused that way from both directions, I get the feeling the Far Right would not mind if it were made to mean “unconditional support for the Israeli government no matter what.”