More strawmen… You’re a dishonest liar and a piece of shit. and then you have the gall to accuse others of debating in bad faith.
If you’re not a bad faith piece of shit, please explain, in detail, what disadvantages are supposed to be conferred on a trans woman who did not medically transition, in accordance with the California law I cited that does not require any form of medical transitioning to compete.
Have we established an opinion yet on the role of red-headed left-handed Scandinavian men in sports?
It has a great deal to do with whether women’s teams are actually going to be overwhelmed by trans players squeezing out the women. Which seems to me to be the underlying theory behind the arguments that say they’re trying to defend women’s sports by refusing to let trans women play them.
As far as whether trans women will always beat cis women: as near as I can tell there seems by now to be considerable evidence against that.
Since we don’t separate sports by hair color or left-or-right-handedness, the relevant bits are that he’s Scandinavian (assuming this refers to a nationality out of the Scandinavian countries, it impacts which Olympics teams he can play for) and that he’s a man, in which case he should participate on the men’s team if he is a cis man or a trans man who underwent transition, but if he’s a trans man who never underwent any medical transition he can compete on the women’s team.
Any other questions?
I put a link to an ESPN article earlier about a volleyball player at San Jose State. It has a discussion of the NCAA policy on trans athletes in the middle, which, as of that writing,
deferred to standards set by individual sports’ national governing bodies.
Or, in other words, the reasonable approach you suggest. They mention the hoops some trans athletes have to go through to get qualified to compete in their sports which, given competition and safety issues, do not seem unreasonable.
But as we are all aware, none of that is good enough to appease the raging transphobes (a category that I would put none of the participants in this thread into, BTW).
nope, that is irrelevant actually. Because something unfair doesn’t happen that often, we should just let it go?
Good thing then that no one here has put such a silly argument forth as a reason to not allow trans women to compete in women’s sports.
I highly doubt women’s sports is going to be overwhelmed by trans women, because trans women are such a small minority as are elite athletes.
I do think that if we split sports by sex due to innate physiological differences between the sexes, and trans people have an advantage derived from their sex assigned at birth, then this is an unfair advantage whether it leads them to be dominant at the sport or not. As noted about, we wouldn’t let someone weighing 125 lbs compete in the 120 lbs weight class just because he has short arms or generally sucks at wrestling. Even if the advantage is small, it stems from the specific underlying characteristics we split sports by, so it is unfair.
And as far as negative outcomes, as noted, I don’t think you’ll see trans women take up all the slots, because there just aren’t very many of them. But over longer periods of time, it wouldn’t surprise me to see more and more cases where you roll a double jackpot: an extremely gifted athlete who also happens to be trans. And when that happens, I think we could definitely see individual records set that cis women are essentially never going to match. And then that athlete will retire, and no, the sport won’t be dominated by trans women, there might not even be any other cis women at that elite level in that sport any time soon. But the records will basically be out of reach for any cis woman.
I’m not sure if this is an intentional strawman or not. I am definitely not saying that trans women will always be at cis women.
I am saying three hings:
But note that point 3 is actually unnecessary to say that this is unfair. Even if that situation never arises, it would be unfair.
By discussing transwomen in women’s sports, we’re already marching to the transphobe’s drum. It’s such a tiny issue to 99.999% of Americans – by far, most Americans aren’t elite high school or college athletes, or have kids in elite high school or college programs. It’s just a tiny issue that affects a tiny number of students in a few schools here and there. It just doesn’t matter, in any sort of larger perspective.
And yet, here we are, calling each others liars and assholes for an issue that, really, just doesn’t matter. And yet, that total non-issue was instrumental in getting the worst person possible elected president.
You’re all marching to the transphobes’ drums and should stop it. If transwomen in women’s sports were never brought up in any thread ever again, it would be too soon.
But the angels and the pins can’t count themselves!
/sarcasm
From one report- How Many Transgender Athletes Play Women’s Sports? - Newsweek
"Privacy laws make it tough to identify the exact number of transgender athletes competing in public school sports, but researcher and medical physicist Joanna Harper estimates the number can’t exceed 100 nationwide.
“While we don’t know the exact number of trans women competing in NCAA sports, I would be very surprised if there were more than 100 of them in the women’s category,” Harper told Newsweek.
One hundred transgender athletes would comprise an incredibly small number of the U.S. population, and the number dwindles even further when it comes to middle school and high school athletes."
Oh, a full hundred! Why didn’t someone say so! That’s certainly a reason to hate on each other and mention that “issue” in every trans thread.
Why, if you gathered them all up, they would be the size of a single NCAA football roster.
And they must be very successful, considering how big a deal people make of them.
Right?
“It doesn’t matter” as in let’s not have any trans women participating in sports and it’s such a tiny number that it doesn’t matter? Or “it doesn’t matter” as in let’s let all trans women in women’s sports regardless of whether they medically transitioned or not and it’s such a tiny number that it doesn’t matter?
It’s super easy to say “let’s stop talking about this, I don’t even know why it’s such an issue” when the outcome you desire is the status quo. Somehow, I doubt that’s what you’d be saying if the status quo was a total national ban in place. (Mind you, I would be opposed to a total national ban, too.)
How about “It doesn’t matter-at all!”?
Yes, it’s a stupid non-issue that should be too far down the Federal government’s list of priorities to be seen with the naked eye. But it’s the ground the transphobes have chosen to fight on, so we do need to strategize about how to redirect the conversation when they try to take it there. Making rational proposals to address their stated issue isn’t going to solve the problem, because their stated issue isn’t really what they care about, but it is part of the solution.
If that’s how you felt, then when the right says “trans women shouldn’t participate in women’s sport at all”, you’d say “OK, I don’t care, it’s a non-issue”.
That’s not how I would react to the right saying that. Is it how you would?
And here is yet another bullshit entry from the master bullshitter, with yet another “So what you’re really saying is…” shitpile.
I’m saying that I’m not going to discuss transwomen in sports, because it’s an issue that transphobes are using to pass other anti-trans legislation. My baseline would be that they are allowed, with some exceptions based on the sport and the level, and that could easily be handled at the local (ultra-local, each school) level.
Instead, you have the president saying that the state of Maine has to do something about it, and you’re being pitted because you decided to take a nuanced position. No nuance is needed for this non-issue – allow transwomen to compete through high school, with some exceptions handled locally. The NCAA and higher already have policies and procedures for this, so it has already been taken care of.
Frankly, if it would help the Democrats win elections, I’d be OK with throwing those few dozen transwomen athletes under the bus. But we all know it wouldn’t stop there.
Trans athletes are the Sudetenland of the culture wars.
That sounds like a reasonable position which is unfortunately against the law in my home state.
I didn’t take a nuanced position on that, or anything else Trump is doing. There’s no nuance there; the president ordering governors to get individual athletes out of sports is enormously fucked up.
What originally put me on the struggle session shit list was taking a nuanced position on Gavin Newsom’s statement on his podcast.
That’s not the law of the land where I live, so I have no idea why you’re bringing up a hypothetical policy you pulled out of your ass.