In sports where men traditionally do not compete with women (tennis, running, etc.), should trans women be allowed to compete against women?
I don’t think so. I think there are physiological differences that persist no matter what transition steps have been taken.
This discussion is probably better suited to Great Debates. Thread relocated from IMHO.
Anyone who identifies as whichever gender should be allowed to compete in whichever gender’s sport they wish to compete.
With absolutely no constraints?
That would only go one way - FtM people aren’t going to succeed in male sports at any level.
I wouldn’t put it past China or North Korea to simply declare that their B teams all identify as female-gendered, for the duration of the competition. Which kind of defeats the purpose of gender divisions in sports.
FWIW, here are the rules for transgender athletes in the Olympics.
Regards,
Shodan
I voted “depends” as the spectrum of trans situations is wide and I can certainly imagine situations where it makes little difference and confers little advantage. I can also envisage situations where it very much will.
I don’t know how to police it and don’t know of any easy way to draw a line. If you have sports with entry criteria that are simply defined and measurable then fine, everyone knows where they are. Trouble is, “woman” is not easily measurable. That leaves us in an uncomfortable situation and I’m not sure how it gets fixed or even whether it can.
For athletes such as Caster Semenya, this leaves them in a very awkward situation. Through no fault of their own they find themselves caught up in a situation that I just don’t think can be solved to everyone’s satisfaction
The point of women’s sports is to set up a protected space where innate biological differences are mitigated. Trans people typically have those innate biological differences, so would seem to me to be ineligible. It defeats the purpose of women’s sports which is to encourage women to be involved in sporting events even though they are rarely competitive in an open sport format. If you allow trans people to compete, then you have simply invented a new sport specifically for trans people and women are once again discouraged from participating. When you also tie in the fact that scholarships are tied to athletic events and Title IX requires equal representation of scholarship opportunities, it makes sense for nearly every single boy in a non-revenue sport to become ‘trans’ in order to best position themselves for financial gain and how exactly could you police that?
No. Like it or not men tend to be better at many forms of athletics than women. The world records for various athletic events tend to be higher for men than for women.
There is a reason that many world records are divided into gender and weight class.
A truly transgendered woman has completed the process and is estrogen fueled, so to speak. I think allowing her to compete is fine. In the case of someone who is still in transition and has a significant level of testosterone, that would give her an unfair advantage.
Years ago, a transgendered person named Dr. Rene Richards competed on the WTA tour, and there was a lot of criticism about letting her do so. Her results on the tour were that of a mediocre female player and nothing more. In her case, it was much ado about nothing.
No constraints.
Gonna be a lot of women named “Dave” winning weightlifting competitions.
I don’t want to throw water on your claim, but Rene Richards was ranked 20 in 1979. Rene was 45-years-old at the time. To put that in perspective, very few women are playing at the age of 45, but Martina Navratilova who is arguably one of the- if not the- greatest players of all time was ranked 376 at the age of 47 (she was only playing doubles when she was 45 and thus unranked). There are currently no over-40 year old women in the top 750 ranked. The oldest is 39 year old Patty Schnyder at 146.
Before transition treatment? No.
During transition treatment? No.
But, after transition - that is, a significant period of time living with a hormone mix typical of ciswomen - a transwoman is going to lose muscle mass and strength and her center of gravity will change. She won’t lose her height - she is, after all, more likely to be of average cismale height than cisfemale height - but the reduced muscle mass and changed balance might well counter-act any lingering advantage gained from that height. (see Renee Richards, mentioned above) Also, in a sport where height is an advantage the transwoman is likely to be competing against ciswomen of greater than average height, wiping out any advantage there, and if lack of height is an advantage than the transwoman might actually be at a disadvantage. I think after a few years it’s not going to make much if any difference. Exactly how long that interval between transition and competing as a woman needs to be I can’t say, I’m not an expert on these things.
If the transwoman went through a complete transition prior to experiencing male puberty then definitely she should compete as a woman as all those male advantages kick in during male puberty and, never having had that, I don’t see where she’d have any advantage over a ciswoman.
Well, I think that’s a very bad idea then. What a person is is more complicated than a mere declaration. We are at the point that in some venues people can’t discuss real, biological issues without being shouted down with accusations of hate speech.
Now, I think every person should have an opportunity to compete in fair sports. I’m not sure the current method is the most fair. I’d rather see weight and gender divisions eliminated than allow people to self identify for the purpose of sport. A prime Mike Tyson declaring himself a female and fighting women would be murder. As an example. Almost literally murder. That’s not fair nor just.
For running at least, wouldn’t there be an advantage to not having formed a female pelvis?
In some sports the difference is huge:
I’m reminded of this athlete I read about: Transgender 'girl' track star with mustache crushes female competitors
No hormone treatments. No surgeries. Said s/he identified as a girl so was permitted on the girls track team.
Perhaps we need additional categories. Born male and still male. Born female and still female. Born male and now identifies as female. Born female and now identifies as male.
I can see curling not being split by gender. But track?
If you’re going to do that just get rid of gender sports altogether.
I agree with the transitioning pre-puberty, but post puberty? No way. What I know is based on memory so bear with me. Post puberty, men have denser bone structure, height, and muscle memory – not just muscle actions, but growing muscle as well. They have height and weight and while they are likely to play against female athletes who are bigger and taller as well, the averages don’t align, the men are going to be on average bigger than the female average. Additionally, it takes like what 10-15 years for hormonal therapy to even things out? These athletes are going into competition as soon as they recover. They are going to recover like a male and still have the testosterone levels, albeit at a reduced rate, but still a clear advantage over natural females (assuming that the testosterone blockers are even that effective). Speaking of testosterone, one of the reasons men and women think differently is because of the amount of testosterone raging through our bodies. Imo, the aggression mentality helps in sports, and combined with the muscle memory it becomes a significant advantage.
Conversely, women who go through female puberty don’t have nearly as dense bones as men, they’re skeletal mass and shape is different (less conducive to sports/athletics) from the fact they have child bearing hips, they don’t have the ligament strength. Men do not have this and is not changed at all during the sexual re-assignment surgery. Men have larger lung and heart capacity, something not found on average vs females.