I pit drivers who stop at pedestrian crossings. (Mild)

[lowbrass]

@Contrapuntal

Only because every statute cited says so.

Nope. That’s your misinterpretation. Show me where it specifically says, in Virginia law, that “the pedestrian must already be in the crosswalk”. It does not say that. It says:

“The driver of any vehicle on a highway shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian crossing such highway”

and

“The drivers of vehicles entering, crossing, or turning at intersections shall change their course, slow down, or stop if necessary to permit pedestrians to cross such intersections safely and expeditiously.”

You are incorrect in your assumption that “crossing” means “is in the street”.

This is what’s known as a false dichotomy. Those choices are not the only two. The pedestrian can wait until is is safe to cross; i.e., until no cars are close enough to hit him.

If it is your contention that the pedestrian must wait until there are no cars in the vicinity, then what exactly is the meaning of “the pedestrian has the right of way”? I do not consider “you have to wait until there aren’t any cars” to be a viable option. Some streets are busy enough that such a situation never exists.

You said You offered no caveats. I showed you an example of a person crossing a street who unambiguously does* not* have the right of way. Duh.

Wow, guess you scored a point for anal-retentiveness and ignoring the context of the discussion. Gee, you must be so proud.

Maybe in California, but not in the other 49. How is a driver to know the intention of someone standing on a sidewalk?

“Boo hoo - how am I supposed to know when someone is crossing the street?” Sheesh, would you people stop whining about this? Just suck it up and try using your brain when you drive. I do it every day. Just put down the phone and tune in. You can tell when someone is trying to cross the street. It’s really not hard.

If the person doesn’t look like he’s going to cross the street, then don’t stop. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t stop when someone clearly IS crossing the street.

I can play your little “how do you know?” game too. If someone steps into the street, how do you know he didn’t drop his keys in the street and is just trying to pick them up? How do you know he didn’t just take one step into the street to hail a cab? If you’re going to be deliberately obtuse, you could argue that there’s no way to ever know if someone is crossing the street.

Again, how can you tell?

You use your brain.

Already debunked. There are more than two choices.

Nope. Your third choice is not a viable option.

Oh, it’s bad manners now, is it? Are you really keen on legislating politeness? Does the government have to do all your thinking for you? Oops. Sorry. Obviously a rhetorical question.

Why are you so resistant to being courteous? The suggestion that drivers ought to be courteous actually seems to enrage you. Odd reaction.

Actually, it is. See my cited definition above.

No, it’s not. Your vague reference to some “definition” that you can’t bother to even give a post # for doesn’t change the topic, thank you very much. If you want to start a thread about people stopping for jaywalkers, go ahead. If you object to people stopping for jaywalkers, you will find me in complete agreement.

[lowbrass]

@Phase42

This is a discussion forum with multiple participants, not private e-mail.

So? If I clearly direct a question at a specific person, it’s because I want that specific person to answer.

And technically, you are being contrary to what just about everybody else is saying, anyway.

The fact that both you and Opal disagree with things I have written does not mean you two share the exact same positions.

Opal and I (and many others) are saying essentially the same thing: the pedestrian is not “crossing the road/street/highway” until he or she has actually stepped onto the road/street/highway.

That wasn’t specifically my question, though. Opal made a point that she wasn’t saying that pedestrians need to time their crossings to stay out of the way of cars, whereas you did seem to be suggesting that. So when you jump in on my question to Opal, it confuses the issue.

In fact, in Washington

Irrelevant.

There is a huge difference between “dodg[ing] the cars” and “waiting my turn”. I don’t know who said it originally, but I’ve always loved this quote: “In America we have many rights that are worth dying for. The right of way is not one of them.”

Which is why cars are supposed to stop BEFORE the pedestrian is actually in front of them. Sadly, it appears that many people don’t understand this.

[lowbrass]

@Lute Skywatcher

Perhaps your being in car-crazy California has something to do with that?

I can tell you from personal experience that there are hardly any maniacs out there on the road for stepping into traffic to be an even remotely dangerous thing to do. I’ve only encountered two around here and I was in the middle of a crosswalk both times!

Well you can step out into traffic with blind trust if you like; I’ll continue to consider that a foolish thing to do.

[pulykamell]

@lowbrass

Well you can step out into traffic with blind trust if you like; I’ll continue to consider that a foolish thing to do.

It’s not like you step out into oncoming traffic. You step a little bit into the crosswalk, to alert drivers of your intention.

Where I’m at, there are two ways to cross the street: 1) at a controlled intersection that stops the cars for you, or 2) by waiting for a break in traffic. There is no way in hell that traffic will stop for you just because you look like you might cross the street. It’s also extremely common to wait for a break in traffic, get to the middle of the street, and then wait for another break in traffic to finish crossing the street.

If you wait near a crosswalk here and hope the cars will stop for you, you’re never going to cross the street. And it’s not considered especially rude–at least not by any pedestrian I know. It’s just the way it works here. I was never taught in drivers ed to stop for pedestrians at the edge of a crosswalk on an uncontrolled intersection. As a pedestrian, I was taught to wait my turn and for there to be a break in the traffic to cross. If I’m uncomfortable with this, I walk over to the nearest controlled intersection.

[Skywatcher]

@lowbrass

Well you can step out into traffic with blind trust if you like; I’ll continue to consider that a foolish thing to do.

If there’s just one vehicle in the road it’s “traffic”.

Like Phase, I only step off a curb if I feel there is enough time between vehicles that I won’t endanger myself or present a hazard to the next driver.

[lowbrass]

@Lute Skywatcher

If there’s just one vehicle in the road it’s “traffic”.

Like Phase, I only step off a curb if I feel there is enough time between vehicles that I won’t endanger myself or present a hazard to the next driver.

The issue in this case isn’t whether it’s a hazard to the driver, but rather whether it’s a hazard to the pedestrian. I still disagree with your assertion:

“I can tell you from personal experience that there are hardly any maniacs out there on the road for stepping into traffic to be an even remotely dangerous thing to do.”

I would not step into traffic merely on the self-assurance that “there are hardly any maniacs out there”. YMMV.

[lowbrass]

@pulykamell

It’s not like you step out into oncoming traffic. You step a little bit into the crosswalk, to alert drivers of your intention.

Where I’m at, there are two ways to cross the street: 1) at a controlled intersection that stops the cars for you, or 2) by waiting for a break in traffic. There is no way in hell that traffic will stop for you just because you look like you might cross the street. It’s also extremely common to wait for a break in traffic, get to the middle of the street, and then wait for another break in traffic to finish crossing the street.

I don’t expect cars to stop if I look like I “might” cross the street. I expect them to stop if I am definitely crossing the street. If a pedestrian is heading straight for a crosswalk, and scanning the street with his eyes, I’m not going to wait until he’s in front of my car to stop. That’s dangerous and rude. I’m going to stop to allow him to cross the street. I don’t know what kind of backwards places you folks live, but it’s done all the time here, and somehow, magically, we avoid 20 car pile-ups and mass destruction! Imagine that.

As a pedestrian, I was taught to wait my turn and for there to be a break in the traffic to cross. If I’m uncomfortable with this, I walk over to the nearest controlled intersection.

This isn’t about what the pedestrian should do; it’s about what the motorists should do.

[Skywatcher]

@lowbrass

I still disagree with your assertion:

“I can tell you from personal experience that there are hardly any maniacs out there on the road for stepping into traffic to be an even remotely dangerous thing to do.”

I would not step into traffic merely on the self-assurance that “there are hardly any maniacs out there”.

Then stop trying to equate California and its laws with the rest of the country.

[lowbrass]

@Lute Skywatcher

Then stop trying to equate California and its laws with the rest of the country.

I’m not. I wouldn’t assume I’m safe to step blindly into traffic in ANY state.

[Skywatcher]

@lowbrass

I don’t expect cars to stop if I look like I “might” cross the street. I expect them to stop if I am definitely crossing the street. If a pedestrian is heading straight for a crosswalk, and scanning the street with his eyes, I’m not going to wait until he’s in front of my car to stop. That’s dangerous and rude. I’m going to stop to allow him to cross the street. I don’t know what kind of backwards places you folks live, but it’s done all the time here, and somehow, magically, we avoid 20 car pile-ups and mass destruction! Imagine that.

Could this have anything to do with not stopping being clearly illegal there and ambiguous everywhere else?

[lowbrass]

@Lute Skywatcher

Could this have anything to do with not stopping being clearly illegal there and ambiguous everywhere else?

I didn’t think it was any more ambiguous anywhere else. Seems like most laws say drivers must stop for “pedestrians crossing the street” (except that goofy Washington law). Y’all are just adding your own “must be IN the street” interpretation that’s not there.

[lowbrass]

Look, let’s cut all the crap, because this whole discussion is going nowhere. Here it is in a nutshell:

I agree that drivers who stop for no reason are idiots. And I don’t believe you need to stop just because someone’s standing near the curb, if you don’t think he’s trying to cross the street.

What I’m saying is: If you see someone trying to cross the street, legally, at a crosswalk, and you KNOW PERFECTLY WELL THAT HE WANTS TO CROSS THE STREET, and you have a reasonable distance to stop your car, and you refuse to stop your car because he’s “not in the street”, then you are an asshole. Period.

[OpalCat]

I may or may not stop for a pedestrian who is waiting to cross the street. It depends on the conditions. If it’s a street that has several lanes of traffic and it’s fairly congested, and traffic is whizzing by in both directions in multiple lanes, and I feel fairly confident that if I stopped, what would happen would be that there would be a really long wait for all the other lanes to decide to stop, too, then I won’t. In moderate or light traffic, I probably would.

If I’m in a pack of cars and there is a really big gap behind me that would be much more suited to the pedestrian crossing, I won’t stop, I’ll just let them cross once I’ve passed and the gap is there. It would seem silly to stop in that case (and when I’ve been the pedestrian in that situation, I know that I’ve often thought that it took longer and delayed me more to wait for the car to stop than it would have for the car to just go on by at speed so I could cross right after it.)

I haven’t presented an opinion yet on whether I feel I am legally obligated to do so or not, because frankly I have no idea. I haven’t read the laws for that in Georgia.

[Skywatcher]

@lowbrass

What I’m saying is: If you see someone trying to cross the street, legally, at a crosswalk, and you KNOW PERFECTLY WELL THAT HE WANTS TO CROSS THE STREET, and you have a reasonable distance to stop your car, and you refuse to stop your car because he’s “not in the street”, then you are an asshole. Period.

I don’t think anyone’s flat out disagreeing with this, with the possible exception of pulykamell. The point contention here is when you claim it’s a legal obligation anywhere outside of California.

[lowbrass]

@OpalCat

If I’m in a pack of cars and there is a really big gap behind me that would be much more suited to the pedestrian crossing, I won’t stop, I’ll just let them cross once I’ve passed and the gap is there. It would seem silly to stop in that case (and when I’ve been the pedestrian in that situation, I know that I’ve often thought that it took longer and delayed me more to wait for the car to stop than it would have for the car to just go on by at speed so I could cross right after it.)

Sorry, but that just seems rude to me. I know you’re probably going to freak out and say I’m misrepresenting you, but to me that sounds like you’re saying you won’t stop because they can cross after you go by. And that sounds like an action consistent with believing you have the right -of-way as opposed to the pedestrian.

[Contrapuntal]

@lowbrass

Sorry, but that just seems rude to me. I know you’re probably going to freak out and say I’m misrepresenting you, but to me that sounds like you’re saying you won’t stop because they can cross after you go by. And that sounds like an action consistent with believing you have the right -of-way as opposed to the pedestrian.

Unless the pedestrian is in the crosswalk, she does.

[lowbrass]

@Lute Skywatcher

I don’t think anyone’s flat out disagreeing with this, with the possible exception of pulykamell. The point contention here is when you claim it’s a legal obligation anywhere outside of California.

Hmmm…I think people are disagreeing, and what I argued is that there is no specific provision in Virginia that makes your duty to yield explicitly contingent on the pedestrian physically having his feet touching asphalt, which is what you and others are arguing.

[lowbrass]

@Contrapuntal

Unless the pedestrian is in the crosswalk, she does.

False.

[Skywatcher]

@OpalCat

I haven’t presented an opinion yet on whether I feel I am legally obligated to do so or not, because frankly I have no idea. I haven’t read the laws for that in Georgia.

Georgia Drivers Manual (PDF!):

[quote]
Page 23
When pedestrians are in the crosswalks, they have the right-of-way over motor vehicles.

Page 25[list=#]The driver of a vehicle shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian to cross the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway opon which the vehicle is travelling, or when the pedestrian is approaching and is within one lane of half of the roadway on which the vehicle is travelling or onto which it is turning. “Half of the roadway” means all traffic lanes carrying traffic in one direction of travel.[li]When making a left or right turn at an intersection.[]At stop signs, after coming to a complete stop before proceeding.[]At traffic signals, even when the light is green, if pedestrians are still in the crosswalk.[]When entering a street or highway from an alley, driveway, or private road.[]When approaching a blind person who is crossing the street or highway if he/she is carrying a white cane or being guided by a dog.[/list][/li][/quote]

[pulykamell]

@Lute Skywatcher

I don’t think anyone’s flat out disagreeing with this, with the possible exception of pulykamell.

I was observing crossing patterns on my way out and back today during rush hour, and, I will confirm, that cars do not stop in the city for people in crosswalks. Pedestrians have to wait in traffic or go to a controlled intersection if they want a clear right of way here. And, you’ll have to take my word on this, it is not considered rude here. It’s never even occurred to me that such behavior is rude. Traffic is tough enough as it is. It’d be completely impossible to get around the city if every two blocks traffic was stopped because somebody was trying to cross the street. The rule here is wait your turn. Eventually, the traffic will let up (due to a light down the street), and the pedestrian will have his/her chance to cross the street.

You can agree or disagree all you want: I’m just stating the practicality of how it works here. Pedestrians and motorists have come to an agreement, and I’ve never heard either bitching about it.