By no stretch of the imagination did I intend a slur on Australia, which I affectionately think of as the Texas of the Pacific. Where wildlife comes in three types, animals that will kill you and eat you, animals that will just kill you, and cute as the Dickens! I have often proposed that our entire yearly output of Coors Beer should be provided to our Aussie allies, free of charge. No need to thank us, just our expression of gratitude for Mel Gibson.
What cute animals come from Texas?
And the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders don’t count.
Touched I’m sure, but why would you need to be grateful for the return of one of New York state’s sons?
Who says nobody gives two shits about it? I certainly do. There’s no rational basis for it, and it invites wholesale abuses like Florida’s purge of the voter rolls in 2000. But it’s a separate issue.
A birth certificate in the state of KY costs $10 and has to either be picked up in Frankfort–a significant trip for most people in the state–or ordered by mail, which can take up to 30 days. Let’s say you’re homeless, but you believe in democracy so much you scrape together the $10 plus postage and the cost of a money order and send it off to the Office of Vital Statistics in Frankfort. Where are you going to tell them to mail it?
So while it isn’t a large burden for most people, it is a significant burden for some people. The question is whether the Voter ID laws solve problems with voter fraud, and whether the magnitude of the problem justifies the excess burden. Since it has yet to be shown that voter impersonation even exists as anything but statistical noise, I have a hard time justifying any real burden at all to prevent it.
It’s much easier to learn than it is to teach. So help me learn how you think; please go first and answer my question from #4, repeated above.
No thanks. I am not really in the mood to engage someone who can’t see past his own bias. Which may mean no one here can answer those questions of mine… :dubious:
You’ll fit in real well with the rest of the pompous right-wing imbeciles. 
Can I hijack this thread to plug my favorite TV series, The Wire ? I’ve been staying awake at nights watching it.
I’m up to Season 5 Episode 1. Great quote in the opening scene:
[QUOTE=A Detective from The Wire]
Americans are a stupid people by and large. We pretty much believe what we’re told.
[/QUOTE]
No, foreigners don’t laugh once they hear how difficult and unusual it is for normal US citizens to get ID. Yes, when I go voting in Germany for example I show my picture ID; however, I’m required to have a picture ID anyway, regardless of driving or buying liquor. All citizens have ID, so showing one is not a hassle. (Though with the improved security, the fee has risen, but on the other hand, it’s valid several years. And I haven’t looked if a reduction or waiving of the fee for poor people is possible.
The example given above of an adopted woman unable to get an ID wouldn’t happen in other countries, because state IDs are so important, you can get one under different circumstances.
Foreigners also don’t laugh when reading the accounts of people being turned away on voting day or being stricken from the rolls because their names are similar to registered criminals, or that ex-prisoners are not able to vote at all, or that some states use electronic machines with security issues big enough to drive a truck through.
Rather, we find it very sad how people accept the disenfranchisement of their rights.
Done the right way, a secure picture ID would help against people being denied through name similarities. But done wrong, it’s just another hurdle for many people, and it sounds as if it’s done wrong currently.
Actually, in really poor countries in the 3rd world, help orgs. have regular drives to register citizens, because the poor people in the countryside can’t afford to travel a long way into town to register every newborn baby and pay the fee, but without a birth certificate, the children can’t enroll in school, are easier targets for human trafficking etc. So the aid groups get one official out in the countryside, pay the fees and the whole village gets the children from the last five years registered in one batch. So it is a serious issue.
But here you have two uncommon examples: a woman who was adopted and was having difficulty getting an ID (and do we know for sure that she never got her ID) and a person who both moved and lost his wallet.
As far as “denying suffrage” goes, having to present an ID (which you need for several other things anyways)is far less of a hurdle than driving to a polling place up to ten miles from your house as some of my more rural living friends have to do. I’d imagine that there are those that live farther.
I’m really not seeing “stealing the election” happening here. Taking away election day registration does seem like a reasonable thing to do, and does leave 364 other days to take care of it should one be so motivated. In most cases, getting an ID isn’t even that hard to do. I’m also a little surprised that requiring an ID is more of an outrage than banning all ex-felons from voting. Regardless of ones voting preference, simply having commited a felony at some point in your life is no reason to lose the ability to have a say in our government.
Wow, way to go! Only the US knows how to do democracy! USA! No matter how many people are turned away, how many votes are miscounted or thrown out, the US knows how to do it! :rolleyes:
(BTW, the bias this board has about “no generalizations allowed” is really obvious once again).
This is a tangent to the discussion at hand, but in the spirit of fighting ignorance…
How is it possible for 10% of grown-ass people in a civilized country to not have any way of proving who they are?
I have, within easy reach, the following forms of ID:
My passport. The gold standard of ID’s really. Have had this one since I was 18.
My bank card. Has my picture, and counts as ID, because, get this, the bank verified my identity before giving it to me.
My driving license.
My student ID. Again, has my picture, and the university confirmed who I was before enrolling me and giving it to me. Since college kids are mentioned in the ID-less group, are US universities just letting people inn willy-nilly without having any idea who they are?
TLDR version; quityerbitchin and get a passport like normal people.
FWIW, my job puts me into contact with lower class people all the time. (As you might expect, a lot of them are Black or Hispanic.)
Anyway, a lot of the time I need to ask them for ID and I’ve never met one who did not have a state issued ID card. The only exception I’ve encountered was a foreign born person who had an ID card from some Latin American country. I don’t ask people about their citizenship or residency status but I would guess that this individual was not in the country legally.
The new Texas law requires voters show one of five forms of ID when they go to vote: a drivers license, military ID, a passport, a concealed handgun license or a voter ID card.
I noticed no rationalist here arguing that disenfranchising ex-felons was less of an outrage than the ID requirement. To the contrary, it is the GOP apologists who have cherry-picked what they consider the least serious of charges to argue against. A plausible debating tactic perhaps (at least for the easily gulled), but one which shrieks their intellectual dishonesty.
I’m afraid that even your post, Harborwolf, leads me to suspect you did not read the full article linked-to in OP. SDMB policy permits only smallish excerpts, such as:
A passport costs about $104.00, if I recall correctly and needs to be renewed every 5 years.
A picture ID bank card is not an acceptable form of ID in my state and many poor people don’t have them anyway. Same for student ID.
Most people do have a driver’s license or state ID card, but in my state it needs to be current to vote. In my state an ID card is $16.00 and renewal $11.00. Driver’s license renewals are $25.00.
The first driver’s license is more- proof of education (about $150.00 if under 24 years of age) or a prep course if over 18 ($15.00), plus $16.00 for the learners permit, $11.00 for the test and $25.00 for the license
Again, many poor people, students, the elderly, people who move a lot and non-driving people have a hard time keeping their licenses and ID’s current. At least one state has made keeping these cards current more difficult by closing the DMV offices in democrat leaning areas and extending DMV hours in republican leaning areas.
And ultimately, why is the ID required anyway? Governor Perry passed his voter ID law in an “emergency session”. What was the energency?
I must admit, I’m one of the most left-leaning, anti-government people on this board, and I really, *really *don’t get the objection to needing a photo ID to vote. I hear the arguments, but they’re all kind of stupid. I mean, if a semi-3rd-world country like South Africa can manage to issue national IDs, and most of the Western World, I have to just shake my head. **constanze **is right, we’re not laughing, unless it’s in disbelief.
Of course, such ID should be free/minimal cost (ours costs ~ $2 but the fee can be waived for lack of money) - but having to have one is not considered an intrusion by the State or a means of disenfranchising anyone (hell, here, if such were true, it would selectively target the governing party’s own supporters). It’s a matter of post-apartheid pride and good citizenship to have your ID. I buy into neither feeling, but I still don’t mind having an ID at all.
Many times in previous discussions the USian dopers have explained that a passport in the US is quite expensive, time-consuming and troublesome to get, and not useful in daily life, because the average Joe rarely travels outside the US to countries where he would need one (Canada and Mexico no longer require one).
Your bank is not the government, right? So if the new law requires “offical government-issued ID” this counts zero.
Unfortunately, because of the wide diversity of local laws in the US, the requirements for drivers license varies widely, both on what’s necessary to get one (birth certificate or just proof of residence?), and on security (paper vs. plastic, with or without picture). We’ve had many stories of people being refused liquor or cigarettes because people in one state didn’t recognize the drivers license from another state as valid.
A federal law unifying these requirements and giving a basic level of security, tamper-proof with picture, would be a good idea, but since the vocal fringe right-wingers are afraid of anything that resembles a “national ID”, this is unlikely, I think.
Moreover, a drivers license is only issued to people who want to drive a car. Not every poor person, or every non-poor person living in a city with bus and underground system, will need a drivers license, so why stand in line and spend money to get one? And how easy is it in every state to get a non-drivers-license-ID? From what some Dopers tell, in some states it’s quite difficult. (Fits with the general distrust of police against any people on foot, because obviously only weirdos or vagrants don’t have a car!)
No, but you can prove who you are and meet the requirements to study at a University without meeting the requirements to vote in the US. (Hear of foreign students? Age of voting eligibility vs. studying early?)
TLDR version; quityerbitchin and get a passport like normal people.
[/QUOTE]
The arguments in this thread are not about a national picture ID in general, though - that is a separate topic, where we’re laughing in consternation at why the right-wingers get their panties in a twist.
This is particular about changing an established procedure in a way and method that targets one group - see the example of closing offices (DMV) that issue a kind of ID (drivers license) in Democratic areas while extending the hours in Republican areas. That’s pretty damning, obvious proof of the real intent of the law.
Like I said above: the problem is not a picture ID per se: if done properly, it could eliminate all the issues with similar names (if there are two Joe Smiths, and one is a felon, the current method is to strike both, depriving the honest Joe Smith from voting. That is not acceptable to my mind).
Rather, it’s the current method of not having a federal, affordable for poor, easy to get, picture ID that all citizens have anyway. So getting a special ID that costs a fee only for voting, when it’s available only in a few, far-apart places, require special documents that are a hassle to get - then the method is rather wrong.
Double post wrong edit