Which she neglects to mention is based on fevered fantasies that are claimed to be taken from real studies, making them LIES.
And people should care about your fantasy estimates based on lies because…?
And yet…61 = 16,000! Magic Math!
139,000 = “between 1.6 and 2.8 million”!
And you think these are all the same? Because if you do, that’s great. Tell you what, you give me $14 and I’ll give you $20. Then I’ll give you $61 and you can give me $16,000.
Then I’ll give you $139,000 and you can give me anything between 1.6 and 2.8 million.
By the way, there is absolute proof that your insane bullshit numbers are actual lies and totally insane bullshit. You haven’t offered squat, nor has anyone else, to show that VV’s numbers are. You do have the SPD talking out of both sides of their mouths, though.
You understand nothing. Absolutely nothing. Never presume to speak for me, I don’t want anyone like you speaking for me. Ever.
I’m sorry you feel justified in ignoring fact and reality because you lost friends. But it doesn’t make it ok for you to keep telling the same lie over and over again in the same sentence that you talk about it. There is no excuse for clinging to ignorance.
Ding ding ding.
Ding ding ding.
You and Straw Man really need to break up. It’s so unhealthy.
Only in the minds of people who want to push that idea because it makes their argument sound less ignorant and irrational.
Absolutey everyone agrees about this. Bravo.
I havent’ seen anyone but you say the number is 800. Stop saying it. It’s a lie. Why do you lie? Stop lying.
You just keep lying.
Why do you lie so consistently?
Do you think that telling the same lie a hundred times will make it true?
Do you think that telling the same lie a thousand times will make it true?
Do you want it to be true?
Do you think lying is good? I don’t. I think lying is bad. That’s why I don’t lie.
And I don’t have a shred of respect for people who lie.
I especially don’t have any for people who keep lying even when the truth is in front of them and has been pointed out over and over again.
Lying is repulsive and disgusting.
I can’t imagine why you would want to engage in such a repulsive and disgusting thing, so blatantly. Doesn’t all that lying make you a little sick at your stomach?
<shiver> I’d hate to do all the lying you’ve been doing. Yech.
I guess you are missing the fact that although some earlier posts do not have links as cites later ones do, sorry - perhaps it is getting late for you and you’ve skipped a bunch.
How is 16 eqaul to the REAL number which SPD posted? Is VV mistaken or lying? Due to their manipulative use of language - I’ll take lying.
And I have cites for my later numbers - perhaps you missed those too.
and should I quote directly from VV again to show who is trying to say there are only ~800 youth sex workers in the USA?
Do I need to or have you learned to read yet?
Sorry, cites to liars who are lying don’t count as real cites.
How can you quote something that you never quoted previously? Every meaningful word in relation to the issue of 827 average arrests and what they mean has all been quoted in the last few hours, proving that your assertion about it is a lie. So it’s just more lies to suggest you can or have quoted anything that proves the lie. Who do you think doesn’t see how many ways you’ve lied about this?
When you decide to stop lying it could be an interesting discussion. For now it seems all you can do is lie. Pretend your lies haven’t been shown to you repeatedly and lie some more. Then lie again. Then say “See how my lie was proved by this website that is lying?”
Stop lying.
It’s lame.
Guh?
Saying something people don’t like is not lying - your problem is with the line I quoted - and that when I see things that compare two unlike values, to me - it appears as if the person using the values are trying to say the things are the same.
That isn’t lying.
This thread has devolved - there are a couple posters who have decided to bully by calling me a liar because I keep pointing out that the VV article is comparing 827 arrests to another number meant to represent at risk kids in a matter which makes the two look equal. The posters have taken to calling this lying - which is a strange definition of lying and are calling me a liar for bringing it up.
Because of this I choose not to follow this thread any longer. I will not debate with bullies.
…there is an explanation for this upthread. Having said that: the Village Voice Magic Maths is nothing compared to the Magic Maths you have managed to perform in this thread.
[QUOTE=Georgina Beyer]
I rise to make my contribution to the third reading of this bill, which I support. I would like to begin by expressing my gratitude to the members of this Parliament for a considered and varied debate from both sides and both points of view. Along with that, I congratulate supporters of both sides of the argument for their contribution, which expresses a fair view from both sides of the nation. I particularly congratulate and pay great credit to Tim Barnett, who has had the courage and commitment to see this bill through to this most important point.
I support the bill, because, as everybody knows, I have had experience in the sex industry—and I am the only member of this Parliament to have had it. If I had had a law like this to protect me and give me some teeth for redress when I was 16 and 17 years old—even on entering into the sex industry—then I might have been spared the 5 or so years I spent in that industry. Barriers would have been created against people who would coerce those under 18 to enter the sex industry in the first place. I support this bill for all the prostitutes I have ever known who have died before the age of 20 because of the inhumanity and hypocrisy of a society that would not ever give them the chance to redeem whatever circumstances made them arrive in that industry.
This bill provides some of that protection. It provides people like me at that time with some form of redress for the brutalisation that might happen when a client pulls a knife. The horror of that situation is that it could be a life and death one—one does not know—but it would have been nice to know that instead of having to deal out justice afterwards to that person myself, I might have been able to approach the authorities—the police in this case—and say: “I was raped, and, yes, I’m a prostitute, and, no, it was not right that I should have been raped, because I said no, and it was not paid attention to.”
I think of all the people I have known in that area who have suffered because of the hypocrisy of our society, which, on the one hand, can accept prostitution, while, on the other hand, wants to push it under the carpet and keep it in the twilight world that it exists in. We are bringing prostitution reform into the light with some of what is proposed in this bill, and the criminal element does not necessarily like to be standing in the glare of greater public influence over how an industry like this might be conducted within our society. It is about accepting that that occurs, and it is about accepting the fact that the people who work in this industry deserve some human rights. I plead with those members in this House who are wavering right up to the wire, to think, for heaven’s sake, of the people of whom I have just spoken, including myself, who might be spared some of the hideous nature of the way society treats prostitutes—because that is here with us.
But if one does have fears, this legislation will be reviewed in 5 years to see how it is operating and whether it is effective. If this bill passes tonight, in 5 years we will be able to reassess its worth. That is something that those who are wavering should be comforted by. But to do nothing now would be irresponsible of this Parliament, because the status quo would remain, and that is unacceptable. This is our one chance in perhaps 20 years to do something. Whatever side of the argument we take, I know we all come from a humanitarian point of view, but I beg members to consider the side I am on, and the side many others in this House are on also. It is the side I consider to be right. It does not diminish, in my opinion, the opinions of those who are against this bill, because some valid points have been made, but not to address this issue now, with this possibility, is not right.
I will conclude by saying that right now we have a sex industry, and we have legislation based on an outmoded double standard. Let us change, please, the part we can.
[/QUOTE]
(hansard at New Zealand Parliament, reprinted under Section 27 of the copyright act.)
…Lexi, you need to stop pretending that just because of your history you have some moral superiority over everyone else in this thread. You don’t. You also need to stop putting words in my mouth. I never claimed that there were 827 kids in the sex trade.
You are not the only one with friends in the industry: you are not the only one to have lost people, or who has had a hard time.
Legalized prostitution in New Zealand happened because of the hard work of MP’s like Tim Barnett and Georgina Beyer, but also due to the intense lobbying by the NZ Prostitutes Collective. It was legislation fought for by prostitutes for prostitutes. It bought them into an equal footing with other industries, protected their legal right to pick and choose who they have sex with and helped drive out the “pimps” that ran the brothels with discriminate fine systems, abuse and an iron fist. Sitting in prison, right now is a policeman who used his position to force a prostitution to have sex with him. This is exactly the thing you are fighting against, that you mentioned in the early pages of this thread, that is part of the evil that affects the sex trade.
What motivates me? I have a huge amount of respect for the men and women who choose to work in the sex industry. I was witness to the pain and the hypocrisy in the country prior to the 2003 law change, and have watched as things have improved remarkably since the change in law.
Having said that: your question is really insulting. This is an open message board where everybody is entitled to express their opinion. We don’t have to “prove” our motivation to express an opinion. However, if you choose to express opinion and guess work as fact, then you need to be able to back that up. I don’t need to explain myself. You are not the only person here with experience of the industry, so stop pretending you have any moral authority here.
You have accused the Village Voice of lying. The evidence (gathered and presented not by you, who was to lazy to do so) as shown by Stoid quite clearly shows that the Village Voice acted in good faith: the SPD changed their stories and redefined their statistics from “arrested” to “recovery.” Hence: no lie.
And has been pointed out by others: there is an order of magnitude of difference between the scale of the alleged mistake by Village Voice and the the scale of the issue as defined by Ashton and co. There is no comparison and you know it.
Please, in post 98 of this thread, you introduced the UPenn study of at risk kids as evidence that your original estimate of hundreds of thousands of child prostitutes/sex slaves was accurate. I suppose it was pedantic of me to actually read the study and point out to you that the numbers were representing children potentially at risk for being sexually exploited, not actual numbers of prostitutes.
You either A. Read and understood the study but deliberately tried to misrepresent what it was about, or B. Didn’t read or didn’t understand the study.
Or, indeed, with anyone else who understands debate, since you will be hopelessly confused and at a terrible disadvantage.
Very true. Lying is lying. But sometimes the two things are the same: I don’t like lying, so you are lying and saying things I don’t like: lies.
No, my problem is with your lies. I don’t have any problem at all with accurate quotes.
Your mental processes are obvious. The problem lies with your insistence that your faulty perception equals objective reality. It’s a common problem, but we here on the Dope are dedicated to helping people see and understand little boo-boo’s like this, because that is the path to eliminating ignorance.
This, and the hundred times you repeated it, has always been false. I would find it hard to believe that anyone who read that article for its content to consider its arguments instead of just skimming it to try to find things to complain about could make that claim in good faith.
The Village Voice article you didn’t read cited some. Hell, the very same person who originally came up with the 100,000 - 300,000 number is cited in that article as not believing that number represents what you and others claim it does. The number is being used to represent the number of children trafficked as sex slaves in the United States in a year. The person who estimated that as the number for at risk juveniles (and, among other dodgy ideas, used “can drive a car” and “lives near Canada” as risk factors!) says the number of actual child sex slaves is way lower – lower than your supposedly low end estimates. If you’d bothered to read the article you are attacking you would know that the person you are indirectly citing as proof of what you want to believe explicitly said you are wrong.
So… sticking your fingers in your ears, basically.
Listen, I’ll agree with you that the Village Voice attacking Ashton Kutcher over these numbers is pretty silly. I mean, he’s never struck anyone as an intellectual in the first place, and I don’t think it’s surprising that a non-expert would fall for a con job that has been repeated in the press several times. His heart was in the right place, even if his math skills leave something to be desired. He is just a victim of a well-organized political group whose goal is misleading the public into providing money to stamp out a nonexistent problem so that they can turn around and use that wealth to try to institute a moral agenda that doesn’t approve of his own marriage and would likely outlaw it if they had the opportunity.
The Village Voice should really have spent more time complaining about so-called academics pretending that a teenager with a car is in significant danger for entering child prostitution, or including the numbers of all teenage runaways in that same number when the vast majority of those are gone only a few days. And they should really try to do all they can to shame legitimate newspapers like the New York Times who repeat these ridiculous statistics as fact without taking even a minute to fact check them. But, honestly, the Village Voice and other publications (like Reason magazine, for a source on the other side of the political spectrum) already have attacked these numbers before and nobody much paid any attention. Attacking Ashton Kutcher at least got some publicity.
Everyone agrees that child prostitution is bad, and that forced prostitution is also bad, and that a combination of the two is even worse. But we aren’t going to solve it by handing millions of dollars over to political action groups pushing numbers that they have to know aren’t real but get people to open their purses better than accurate numbers and whose real goals are things like outlawing abortions and teaching the Bible in public schools.
Bravo, Dan. Well said.
Nor is he the only victim of the con.
Here’s a snip from a recent ccn.com article:
Interestingly, clicking on that link brings up a page with this text:
See how neatly we lose that qualifier? And also look at the creep in numbers: “more than 300,000” in the CNN article (with a freaking link to the dtudy that gives it the lie!!) becomes “about 293,000.”
And “at risk of becoming” just vanishes into the mist.