I Pit idiots/hypocrites unconcerned about America's sex trafficking

…there you go making assumptions and insulting people again. Maybe, just maybe, the people you are insulting know more than you think.

Now I started to respond to the rest of your post, but I suddenly realized that I really have more important things to do than to win a debate on the internet. Suffice to say congrats on finding a cite: and after reading it and checking out the primary sources I’m not at all convinced that you have backed up your assertions.

It is not unfair to ask for primary information. When you make a claim such as:

I would fully expect to be provided with at least some primary data. Do Sweden and Finland track people trafficking the same way? What years were these? What were the laws in Finland at the time? The report you linked to mentions Finland twice, the data is quite clearly labeled as estimates only, and after searching for about fifteen minutes I can’t verify the figures anywhere. And besides, this report was written eight years ago based on information gathered probably ten years ago. What exact years were these statistics gathered? From here:

I can’t track down any more reliable stats for Finland in the half an hour of trying: how about you? If we take the US State Department figures as acceptable: in 2008 nine people were prosecuted for trafficking in Finland in 2008. Based on this I am skeptical of the 17,000 Finland 200 Sweden comparison from back prior to 2003. As mentioned in this report:

Is the same definition used for “humans trafficked” in both Sweden and Finland? Now that is just one of many, many of the different “facts” regarding prostitution that have doubtful veracity. My favourite “fact” provided by you was that legalized prostitution had resulted in an increase in brothels. Imagine that! Legalizing brothels has resulted in more brothels! Who would have thought? Why is this a bad thing?

New Zealand has had legalized prostitution since 2003. The biggest advocates for the legislation was the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective:, an organization formed by prostitutes to protect the rights of prostitutes. They fought for the law change, they helped draft the new laws, they continue to fight to this day the continued attacks and stigma associated with the industry.

I’ve posted this before, but I’ll do it again. This is the full text of the speech of the former member of parliament Georgina Beyer on the eve of the passing of the Prostitution Law Reform Act of 2003. When I was working with the Parliamentary Caterers back in 2002 Georgina was one of my favourite politicians to work with. Georgina was the first elected transsexual Member of Parliament and in her early days used to work as a sex worker.

(Quote from Hansard quoted in full in compliance with NZ Copyright rules in regards to parliamentary reporting)

[QUOTE=GEORGINA BEYER]
I rise to make my contribution to the third reading of this bill, which I support. I would like to begin by expressing my gratitude to the members of this Parliament for a considered and varied debate from both sides and both points of view. Along with that, I congratulate supporters of both sides of the argument for their contribution, which expresses a fair view from both sides of the nation. I particularly congratulate and pay great credit to Tim Barnett, who has had the courage and commitment to see this bill through to this most important point.

I support the bill, because, as everybody knows, I have had experience in the sex industry—and I am the only member of this Parliament to have had it. If I had had a law like this to protect me and give me some teeth for redress when I was 16 and 17 years old—even on entering into the sex industry—then I might have been spared the 5 or so years I spent in that industry. Barriers would have been created against people who would coerce those under 18 to enter the sex industry in the first place. I support this bill for all the prostitutes I have ever known who have died before the age of 20 because of the inhumanity and hypocrisy of a society that would not ever give them the chance to redeem whatever circumstances made them arrive in that industry.

This bill provides some of that protection. It provides people like me at that time with some form of redress for the brutalisation that might happen when a client pulls a knife. The horror of that situation is that it could be a life and death one—one does not know—but it would have been nice to know that instead of having to deal out justice afterwards to that person myself, I might have been able to approach the authorities—the police in this case—and say: “I was raped, and, yes, I’m a prostitute, and, no, it was not right that I should have been raped, because I said no, and it was not paid attention to.”

I think of all the people I have known in that area who have suffered because of the hypocrisy of our society, which, on the one hand, can accept prostitution, while, on the other hand, wants to push it under the carpet and keep it in the twilight world that it exists in. We are bringing prostitution reform into the light with some of what is proposed in this bill, and the criminal element does not necessarily like to be standing in the glare of greater public influence over how an industry like this might be conducted within our society. It is about accepting that that occurs, and it is about accepting the fact that the people who work in this industry deserve some human rights. I plead with those members in this House who are wavering right up to the wire, to think, for heaven’s sake, of the people of whom I have just spoken, including myself, who might be spared some of the hideous nature of the way society treats prostitutes—because that is here with us.

But if one does have fears, this legislation will be reviewed in 5 years to see how it is operating and whether it is effective. If this bill passes tonight, in 5 years we will be able to reassess its worth. That is something that those who are wavering should be comforted by. But to do nothing now would be irresponsible of this Parliament, because the status quo would remain, and that is unacceptable. This is our one chance in perhaps 20 years to do something. Whatever side of the argument we take, I know we all come from a humanitarian point of view, but I beg members to consider the side I am on, and the side many others in this House are on also. It is the side I consider to be right. It does not diminish, in my opinion, the opinions of those who are against this bill, because some valid points have been made, but not to address this issue now, with this possibility, is not right.

I will conclude by saying that right now we have a sex industry, and we have legislation based on an outmoded double standard. Let us change, please, the part we can.
[/QUOTE]

Eight years on from legalization many of the terrible things that happened to friends of mine no longer happen. The industry is cleaner, safer and worker friendly. The world hasn’t come to an end.

I’m not particularly interested in doing the legwork for the article or for you. Why don’t you show me the context. Show me what year the survey was done. Show me what countries the workers were surveyed in. Show me the study that concludes that 75-80% of prostitutes don’t act of their own free will. Define “free will” in context of this statement. I see no reason why I should take that little snippet as reliable considering I have no idea if it is talking about Prostitutes in NZ, or Australia, or Finland, or the United States, or wherever. Why do you trust those numbers?

Legalized prostitution is not the enemy and treating women who choose to work in the industry as victims is belittling and insulting. Illegal trafficking should be fought with the full power of the law and if people are being forced into prostitution then everything should be done to bring the perpetrators to justice. Just don’t single out legalized prostitution as the cause of the problem when the real problem (as shown by your cite) is poorly enforced regulation, open borders, criminal syndicates and under resourcing.

…so you complain about people making jokes but don’t really feel like singling anyone out.

And you claim that the line between pimping and trafficking are blurred even though legally and literally they are not.

And you complain about people deny statistics, yet when confronted with the dubious origin of those statistics you simply ignore it.

You cry " however high pimping ranks on law enforcement’s priorities, it isn’t high enough?", yet when asked which particular law enforcement agency does not have trafficking high on their priorities, you claim that you are not an expert on law enforcement and that you are just an ordinary citizen.

So lets get this straight: what exactly are you pitting again?

It’s blurred, like that line!

This conclusion couldn’t possibly be more flawed. 17,000 people are trafficked into Finland each year? If this happened for 10 years that would mean 170,000 people were trafficked into Finland. Finland only has a population of about 5,000,000. It is ludicrous to imply that 1/30 people in Finland is a trafficked prostitute, let alone a trafficked prostitute who is being actively forced into prostitution. If the 17,000 per year number is correct, and I’m not particularly convinced it is, the vast majority of those people are illegal immigrants, not sex slaves. If Finland really does have more than 30 times the rate of human trafficking (which can mean a wide variety of things) as Sweden, it is almost certainly because Finland shares a large boarder with Russia, not because Sweden thinks its OK to sell it but not to buy it.

It is far more likely a rolling total of women whom are actively trafficked in a year - and from what I have read, the average time in prostitution is somewhere between 5 and 9 years - so the number would be far lower.

Why don’t you write to the person who wrote the article and ask for a cite.
As for naming posters who have seen themselves as the exception to the creepy man using an exploited girl, just read every thread, and there will be at least one poster who patronizes sex workers and does not think there is any possibility that the women are exploited in any way, and that exploited women are the minority. This board has a search function.
This myth of a happy hooker is the only way they can morally live with what they do, so they will never give up this myth.

In the United States, the vast majority of prostitutes are not “forced” into prostitution in any legal sense of the term. The majority of prostitution in the United States does not involve a pimp at all. The illegality of prostitution is exactly what enables pimps to threaten prostitutes or their loved ones with violence. People emotionally manipulate other people into doing lots of things, and making “emotional manipulation” legally akin to slavery or violent coercion is pretty much impossible.

When I lived in DC, I volunteered for HIPS, Helping Individual Prostitutes Survive. The focus was on streetwalkers, who generally are desperate people who don’t have a ton of options available to them. We did things like give them condoms, let them know where they could get free STD testing and other healthcare, put them in contact with homeless shelters and battered women’s shelters, help them get their kids on food assistance, etc. We had a lot of contact with the DC police, although we did not work for them. Based on those experiences, I can make the following pertinent statements.

  1. If you think trying to help prostitutes is only about helping women, you’re completely wrong. More than 1/3 of the streetwalkers were men. Half of the men were cross dressers or transgendered, the other half just openly worked as men. Their clients were also men (in case you’re wondering). Apparently DC has a slightly higher than average rate of openly male streetwalkers when compared to other American cities.

  2. Streetwalking is not the most common form of prostitution, and most prostitutes do not have pimps. According to the DC police, most prostitutes advertised on the internet, or worked as “bar girls.” Bar girls would flirt with men in a bar, then offer to leave with the men and seal the deal in exchange for cash. There were a few brothels and call girl services, but these were not common. These types of prostitutes rarely had pimps. Many of the streetwalkers had pimps, but certainly not all of them. Some of the prostitutes complained about their pimps, but the far more common complaint was that people tried to rob them. The male prostitutes also suffered a lot of random attacks, since some people’s version of a good time was to beat up a male prostitute.

  3. The version of a pimp from movies or music, in which the pimp makes a lot of money and has a “stable of hos,” is almost never realistic. Most pimps are desperately poor individuals themselves, who essentially live off their girlfriend who happens to be a prostitute. And yes, they tend to be exceptionally scummy individuals, and most them are violent towards the prostitutes they extort or mooch from. Of course the wheel always keeps spinning, and many pimps who violently extort prostitutes are themselves subsequently extorted by other, tougher criminals.

  4. The police do arrest pimps, although rarely for some sort of direction of harlotry charge, which are difficult to prove. Most of them get arrested for assault or extortion. Someone who is pimping out underage girls will usually be charged with statutory rape or child molestation (very serious crimes). Depending on the exact circumstances they will sometimes be prosecuted with kidnapping, or under some old “white slavery” laws which involve transporting a female for the purposes of prostitution.

…as I pointed out earlier the article has no listed author. I’ve also pointed out that I don’t particularly trust the article, however if someone else is going to use the article as a cite I am going to challenge them if the statistic looks outlandish. So why should I have to verify somebody elses cite? I shall just choose to disbelieve it unless they can prove it is true.

And what is with this passive-aggresive approach to pitting other posters? I’m not going to read every thread on this board to find examples of “poster who patronizes sex workers and does not think there is any possibility that the women are exploited in any way, and that exploited women are the minority.” I believe you are just making this up. I’m not going to do your work for you. I searched for and read a couple of threads as suggested by the lazy OP, and I didn’t find any evidence of this alleged poster type. So why don’t you call them out and give them the opportunity to defend themselves?

Then, why not combine legalization of prostitution and prosecution for the clients of “illegal” prostitutes? For “independents”, not working in a brothel, that would of course require some kind of registration, and probably an “official prostitute card” (so that the client would know who he’s dealing with) something that said “independents” probably wouldn’t like much.
Prohibiting prostitution is fighting windmills, anyway. Even in times and places where it could result in a death sentence, there still were prostitutes, and they didn’t lack clients. There are prostitutes in Saudi Arabia, for Chrissake!
Plus, I really see this as a serious problem of freedom. If you want to sell sex for money, and someone else is willing to buy it, whose business is it to tell you you can’t? Frankly, when remembering a job I briefly had in a factory where only women were working (managers, including low-level ones, were men, though), given the conditions and salary, it seems to me that picking prostitution and probably making in one day what you would otherwise make in one month is a quite sensible choice, in fact, and certainly not more demeaning.
The only (former) prostitute I ever have known quite well was a man, which might makes a significant difference, but he has no regrets about this period of his life. He was in it for the flow of easy money, period. When I think about it, I’m wondering if he didn’t begin when he was underage. I’ll have to ask him.
The main problem with discussions about prostitution is that sex for money is generally perceived as being despicable, damaging and wrong no matter what, even if the prostitute is willing, wasn’t ever molested as a kid (common theme : all prostitutes had some major issue at some point and this led them this activity that otherwise no person in his right mind would ever choose), etc… If solutions were searched for this societal issue without all this moral baggage, it would make the debate much simpler.
Sure, legalizing prostitution doesn’t make pimping or forced prostitution disappear. That’s pretty clear and proven. But there’s no doubt either that forbidding it leads to all sorts of very serious issues and dangers for the prostitutes. And imagining for an instant that this activity could disappear completely if only you found the right way to ban it (punishing the johns or whatever) is seeing pies in the sky.

Fot the record, over here, this problem is partially solved by prosecuting as pimp pretty much anybody who benefits from the prostitute’s income. So, if you’re living with a prostitute, you’re better off paying for the rent yourself, for instance. It doesn’t solve the problem for mafia type pimps, but it does wonders for the pretty common boyfriend-pimp you mentioned or for the bar owner who would want his share of the profits.

How is the John to know which hookers are the coerced ones?

Some Johns won’t care if the hooker is exploited or not, some will. But the hooker who is exploited ain’t going to be upfront about it, right?

On a seperate issue: How about strippers? Are they hookers without the happy ending? (i.e. desperate women with few marketable skills being taken advantage of by unscrupulous club owners.)

Some johns will *prefer *the hookers who are being exploited. You can abuse slaves more than you can free persons.

Yep - if the woman could expect a beating if she tells the John she is forced into it, what will she likely do? If the John can not know if the woman is being coerced - what should he assume?

And some men do not care, they are just masturbating using a warm body.

Here is a true story of what happened to a friend of mine. This girl who was 15 at the time was waiting for a few friends in a public place when she was nabbed by a pimp who held her, raped her and beat her for 3 days until she agreed to work for him. She was then held naked in a hotel room where Johns were brought in. After having told 3 johns that she was being held against her will, the third one did not carry out the deed, and grabbed her, took his coat, and put it over her naked body and helped her out the back stairwell of the hotel so she could escape. The two men before had sex with her, and one of the two had said that he’d already paid, so he wasn’t going to leave without having sex with her.

After escaping out the fire escape of the hotel - running to a convenience store where the clerk called the police for her, she endured police who doubted her story, and did little to track down the pimp, despite the pimps name being known to police because this girl had previously ran away from home.

It wasn’t until another girl was kidnapped and raped by the same pimp that any charges were laid, but only in the case of the other girl because her parents were more well off, and put pressure on the police. As for my friend, she never saw justice for her case.

This was in 1987, and according to people I know who either advocate or even work in the sex trade, the only thing different now - is the ads in the back of newspapers and street workers have been mainly replaced by online ads.

As for strippers, I’ve met ones on they way up & out, and ones on the way down. Stripping is not prostitution.

I was in a hotel in Norwalk CT about 15-odd years ago.

11:00 at night, a knock comes on my door. I open it ('cause I’m young and fearless and will live forever) to see two people, one male, one female, both of them obviously younger than 20.

“My sister needs some money. You interested in a piece of ass?” <she turns around and starts doing the booty-shake>

“Er… no, thanks. I’m married.”

“She-it, so’s my sister.”

“You might want to try next door.”

I called down to the front desk - “Oh, yes, that’s Sheila and Ty. They come around here about twice a week and we flush them out when we receive complaints.”

“Did you ever think that the nights that you don’t receive calls to ‘flush them out’ is because they’re successful?”

“…”

“Never mind.”

lexi, are you saying that the best course of action is to assume that the vast majority of prostitutes are coerced sex slaves?

If, for instance, one in 5 were sex slaves - would you be fine with a 1/5 chance of contributing to the abuse of a woman? How about 1/10? What about 1/25? If you happen to be using the woman and she is a sex slave are you any less culpable if the percentage is lower?

Well, that’s why it’s important to look for the union label.

I’m not saying there isn’t reputable escort agencies and that there is no such thing as a free prostitute. There is, and if a john can ensure that the women he is with are over the age of majority (because plenty of girls look older than their ages), and are not being pimped against their will, then they haven’t contributed to the abuse. But what percentage of johns will do that? It is far more likely they open up the backpages, and pick out something they think will get their rocks off.

Most stats I have seen regarding underage prostitution put it at between 10 and 20% of the trade, so for those who use the websites and the back pages of papers, there is a real chance that you are getting a child sex slave. Not every underage girl considers herself a sex slave though, some think they love their pimp & some are so hopped up on drugs that they don’t care & some have no idea how else to survive. Not every girl over 18 is free either, same as the underage ones, some love their pimp, some are drug addicts, and some think have no other way to survive.

Here are just a small number of girls who were/are my friends.

One girl I used to know who worked the streets as a teen did it to make sure she had money to take care of both her sister and herself. Like most girls, she had a history of abuse in the family, no education, no support from her family and little else she could do. She was murdered by a john almost 22 years ago.

Another girl I knew was 13, and although sometimes she did go it alone - she frequently was captured by a pimp and enslaved once again. Last I heard anything about her, she was about 17 years old. I can only hope she is alive and well, but it is not likely that her life has made her happy.

Two girls I know were “traded” to Calgary for the Olympics in 1988 when they proceeded to run away and ended up in a youth shelter in Edmonton where they went back to school, and tried to build a normal life.

One girl I know was sold by her own mother for drugs.

One girl I know was forced into the life at 12, and despite having spent a decade as an advocate against the sexual exploitation of youth, went back to the life and drug addiction after a trauma.

One woman I know entered the life as an escort after she lost her two children in a divorce and had a drug habit neither the ex-husband nor herself could afford. Working for the agency she had a problem making sure she had enough money for a place to live after paying for her coke habit. After a while at an agency, she got herself a boyfriend who shared his place with her, and she started working for him instead. It went from a loving relationship to a master slave quite quickly.

Another woman I know was in school, and stripping when she found out she could make more money by providing the happy ending. She ended up dropping out of school and losing her kid to social services.

I could keep going with these stories, but over all there is a theme - the working girl’s story ain’t pretty woman.

Even when working for themselves (and perhaps more so working without a pimp because they have no protection) - there are johns who rape and johns who beat them - men are far from the working girl’s favourite thing. Most see men as either stupid things that they use to get cash or as dangerous and evil things - and more commonly a combination of both.

Most have major issues with intimacy and friendship, even years after leaving the life. More than once as a thank you for a favour or as a token of friendship, I’ve had them proposition me (I am female). Some of these women think that their only value is sexual and that the only thing they can give is their body.

This is why although I think legalization and brothels would increase safety and would free up more resources to chase after the pimps and those who exploit children, I am against prostitution and I have no respect for anyone who has paid for sex.

I’m not happy with abuse, period.

But I don’t know how many prostitutes are abused/coerced women, either.

I did utilise the services of a bar-girl/prostitute in the Phillippines in 1989. She was not under age, according to the “entertainers license” she carried.

I did not slap her around, or abuse her. I bought her drinks. The only terror she experienced from me was having to lay with a pale scrawny sailor barely able to shave yet. When it was clear that there was no “chemistry”, I lost interest, apologised, and dropped her back off at the bar (via a cab ride for the two of us).

I what way am I culpable of abuse? (I have no idea what her situation was.)

If her situation was as it appeared, you are not, but if she was not working of her own free will, and you did not have sex with her, but paid, you still provided a financial incentive for the pimp to keep her in bondage.