I Pit "Modern Islam"

That PEW survey is generally trusted in academic circles, although its implications are naturally debated. The high favorability rates for Sharia law do not necessarily point to sympathy for specific punishments for specific crimes, and some high rates in favor of say, death for apostasy does not mean that every person will kill an apostate when they see them. However, the positive associations that the term ‘Sharia law’ creates among many people in Muslim countries is meaningful to note in itself, and there’s a lot to be said about it. Much of the criticism that we can make from it actually can be directed at modern governments in Islamic states, especially those that claim that their regimes are compatible with ‘Islam,’ and the international structures that support them. Other criticisms involve the assumed sacredness, goodness and authority of the primary sources and to an extent those recognized to expound on them; and of course there are also history-based critiques of the widely recognized theoretical legitimacy - if not the local applicability - of disagreeable practices, like stoning or slavery or the enforcement of patriarchal norms.

In any case, these discussions should always be done with empathy shown to the people involved, and an awareness of intersectionality issues.

Certainly, many Westerners - liberals and conservatives - do Muslims no favors when they define as peace-loving anyone who denounces the terrorist group of the day and turn a blind eye to violence - immediate, structural, cultural - toward or within Islamic communities.

What most people in my experience fail to grasp is that Islam, like other religions, exerts influence and is influenced. Local customs gain local approval or local opposition within an Islamic framework. What this means is that you usually cannot say that Islam in one place says very much about Islam in another place. What it also means is that you usually cannot say that some local custom in an Islamic community is ‘unrelated’ to Islam. In most cases, the relationship is not “Islam as a whole says to do this” but rather “the community has, at this time, reconciled these practices with their religious identity in some form.” Mealy-mouthed, yes. But more accurate and helpful. For better or for worse, the only thing that really unites Muslims around the world is the issues and sources upon which they disagree.

The Ku Klux Klan does reflect on Christianity to a certain degree. Why wouldn’t it?

I’ll note that the Ku Klux Klan, at various times in its history, had a lot more official support than ISIS has ever had. Still, it’s not like white Christians were coming to America from abroad to join the KKK in its struggle. So maybe it’s a wash.

Well, he liked the fat woman, so not quite a yo momma so fat line. Hadith are still really fascinating. The collectors cared about the chain of narrators, not the content as much, so the topics are… varied. Abu Huraira ones are always eye-catching:

[QUOTE=Abu Huraira]
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet (ﷺ) Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, ‘By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.’ So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, “My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body. Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone.” Abu Huraira added, “By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating.”
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Abu Huraira]
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said to me: they (the people) till constantly ask you, Abu Huraira, (about different things pertaining to religion) the they would say: Well, there is Allah, but after all who created Allah? He (Abu Huraira) narrated: Once we were in the mosque that some of the Bedouins came there and said: Well, there is Allah, but who created Allah? He (the narrator) said: I took hold of the pebbles in my fist and flung at them and remarked: Stand up, stand up (go away) my friend (the Holy Prophet) told the truth.
[/QUOTE]

This second one, by the way, is part of a long and contentious elaboration on when it is and is not acceptable to throw pebbles.

There are many hadith that are unbelievably nasty, and more than a few that are really moral, but debating them is tiresome. I prefer the unusual ones.

You’re obviously missing the point. To use your Nazi example, it would be more like if we were having a discussion about Nazism, and someone said only a fringe minority of Nazis are anti-Semitic, and I cited a survey showing that actually a whole lot of them are, and then you and a certain sanctimonious, moralizing sack of shit jumped down my throat for it.

People upthread stated that only a fringe minority of Muslims believe in things like death for apostates. I cited evidence to the contrary because I think it’s relevant to the discussion that those claims are evidently false. That’s all the limited ground I’ve staked out here. If you want to impute all sorts of other claims to me and then argue against them with all your energy, knock yourself out.

Nice effort to force me into a corner there: you want me to choose between calling the people I live with “morons” or accuse them of favoring stoning to death all adulterers.

Sorry, that won’t work. As you, from your decades of living and working in Indonesia side by side with Indonesians, will know, people here often refer to themselves as “Islam statistik.” The government requires that you have one of six approved religions on your identity card; most people are nominally Muslim. If asked “are you Muslim” they will unhesitatingly say yes, because that’s just how it is done here. And they’ll go along with the idea that “I’m Muslim, Shari’a is Muslim, so yeah, that’s okay.” That doesn’t mean they have any particular knowledge of what Shari’a actually means. To be frank, the education system here is not that good; it promotes rote learning, not introspection. People aren’t big readers and studiers here.

Aceh is the one region of Indonesia that does tend to knowledgeably favor Shari’a; for the rest of the country Aceh is a joke.

Anyway - Indonesia is a democracy now, remember? And the nation just elected a new president. So if the people actually wanted Shari’a they could have elected a candidate for whom that was part of the platform. But guess what - they actually elected the progressive guy who the opposition attempted to smear by claiming he had Chinese (non-Muslim) roots.

BTW you ignored my earlier point about Muslim dress. Were you too busy admiring the jilboobs?

Maybe if you had friends in Indonesia who said this your argument would be more compelling.

This is crazy. Are you saying the conquered European countries supported the murder of Jews? Even if your number is supposed to refer only to Germans, the SS was at pains to disguise the Holocaust.

Actually, for me, and I suspect a number of other people, a major driver of concern about Islam is an appreciation of this ability of Islam to be influenced, combined with the fact that most of this influence is travelling from more extreme regions and ideologies(Saudi Arabia in particular) to moderate regions.

I think that’s simply a load of bollocks. Islam is different from what most westerners have grown up with and thus is easier for said westerners to peg as a supposed cause of whatever untoward thing a particular Muslim happens to be doing. But, oddly enough, when a particular Muslim is doing something amazing, those same westerners don’t credit the Muslim’s faith as being a driving force.

Are you saying that hardline interpretations of Islam, funded through Saudi Arabia, are not growing in influence?

I don’t know what the fuck you’re on about, particularly since I’m not a westerner.

Wasn’t it just fairly recently that an anonymous Muslim cabdriver in New York went to the authorities with a tip about planned terrorism? Prompting locals to ask “Who was that mosqued man? I wanted to thank him.”

’luci 1, Terrorism 0

Dunno, that was pretty terrible.

If he cannot make terrible puns, the terr’rists have already won.

Yeah. A couple of factors that go into this playing out in the way it does is that traditional Islamic authorities in many places are strongly associated with local governments, and that traditional methods of apportioning local authority have not adapted very well to the information age. Saudi Arabia (and a couple of the Gulf states) contribute an absolutely ridiculous amount of resources relatively into promoting their views. This really started after 1979, partly in response to the Iranian revolution and partly to quell conservative elements at home. The Muslim Brotherhood has also been tremendously influential both as an organization and as a source of inspiration.

Thomas Friedman’s recent column may shed some light. For example,

Well, Monty thinks that’s a load of bollocks.

Actually, I now know you’re a troll.

Is it silly? Europeans are still pretty anti-semitic today. Though some people blame that on Muslim immigrants too. Win-win, I guess.

And you’re a fucking jack in the box who jumps around spouting reflexive apologia and is incapable of addressing any meaningful criticism on the topic, but hey what’re you gonna do, right?

Well, sure. But it’s not because “they’re Europeans”, whatever one may mean by that. It’s not like they give us an instruction booklet :). European-ness is not a cause or source of antisemitism in and of itself, and it’s much too broad and vague a descriptor to be of any meaningful use, was my point. Same goes for “Muslim”.