Islam and Empathy

[Chihuahua]

Here’s something that I never really understood and it bugs be quite a bit. I’ve spent the last thirteen years or so watching Muslims in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan express their rage and hatred of all things American. It always seems more than a little bit hypocritical to me. So I’ve always wondered:

1. Muslims in third-world countries always seem ready to throw violent riots when they perceive their religion has been insulted. Do they ever realize that Western fear / anger towards Islam is rooted almost entirely in incidents of terrorism and violence perpetrated in Islam’s name? I mean, do they ever stop raging about whatever perceived insults they have suffered to think, “You know, the West doesn’t seem to like us, but surely if I suffered murders, airline hijackings, and indiscriminate bombings, I might feel the same way. They also never seemed to take much notice of us until someone flew planes into buildings that one time… I wonder if that had something to do with their change in attitude?”

2. Pakistan’s government and its people always complain about their sovereignty and America being evil and so on and so forth. I see them raging and protesting the air campaign in their territory. Has Pakistan ever engaged in any sort of self-reflection about their role in sponsoring terrorism and their crimes against the West? I mean, “Wow, those Americans are sure mad at us. I wonder why that is? I feel outrage when Americans airstrike our territory and kill our people. Surely the Americans must feel the same way when someone flies a plane into their building. I am so angry that I want revenge on the Americans. But if the Americans have suffered similarly, surely the Americans are just as angry as I am. Maybe they aren’t just bombing us at random? What if this whole state-sponsorship-of-terrorism thing has something to do with it?”

3. Do Muslims in these countries comprehend what freedom and democracy really mean? Do they understand how these concepts apply to them and their cause? Like, “I live in a country torn apart by sectarian violence. People want to kill me because they disagree with my interpretation of Islam. I would surely like to live in a place where I could practice my sect’s manners, without any competing sects trying to kill me.” I mean, I see people who say they hate freedom and democracy, but it doesn’t seem to occur to them that freedom means they get to practice Islam freely, and have the freedom to protest people whose version of Islam they don’t agree with. It seems to me that this is what they want, right?

4. Every Muslim country seems to have the idea that other countries versions of Islam are “wrong.” As in, the people from country X pray the “wrong” way or the people in sect Y believe the “wrong” thing. Do they actually comprehend that other people believe that their way is correct? Or that the version of Islam they practice has more to do with an accident of geography in where they were born? Does it ever occur to them that other people feel fear and hate the same way they do, and just as they don’t like feeling oppressed, they can reasonably infer that other people might not like feeling oppressed, either?

[iiandyiiii]

You’re painting with a massively broad brush. Even in a country like Pakistan, there is diversity of opinion on most issues among Muslims.

[Nava]

You’re making a lot of assumptions, not only about Muslims, but about “the Western world”. Then again, the same scaremongers who love to watch “the West” at odds with “the Muslims” would not consider me part of the West, so I guess you can take these with a chunk of salt.

@Chihuahua

Do they ever realize that Western fear / anger towards Islam is rooted almost entirely in incidents of terrorism and violence perpetrated in Islam’s name?

The negative remarks I’ve heard about Islam are usually rooted almost entirely in ignorance, sometimes from people who really, really should know better. “They worship other gods” - lady, they’re monotheistic…

In some cases, the fear of specific contact with Muslims is linked to specific countries’ history and to believing that those contacts are made more difficult when the parties involved are of different religions and/or cultures. Many people who wouldn’t be thrilled to hear their daughter is marrying a Muslim wouldn’t be thrilled to hear she’s marrying a Hindu either, but not because of the groom’s race or even because of the religion itself, but because they see marriage as being more difficult the more things you can’t take for granted (my own opinion is that knowing those differences are there can make things easier, as you’ll be more conscious of the fact that you need to solve them).

I mean, do they ever stop raging about whatever perceived insults they have suffered to think, "You know, the West doesn’t seem to like us, but surely if I suffered murders, airline hijackings, and indiscriminate bombings, I might feel the same way.

“They” have suffered many of those things. Then again, you seem to limit “Muslims” to a very limited region.

They also never seemed to take much notice of us until someone flew planes into buildings that one time…

Ah, yes, you definitely don’t consider me part of the West. Well, I’m afraid I can’t answer the way I’d like, this being GD and all, but I’ll let you fill in the blanks.

Pakistan’s government and its people always complain about their sovereignty and America being evil and so on and so forth. I see them raging and protesting the air campaign in their territory. Has Pakistan ever engaged in any sort of self-reflection about their role in sponsoring terrorism and their crimes against the West?

If you’ll allow them the 3yo’s standard answer “he started it!!!” Pakistan didn’t exactly invent backing terrorism. Most Pakistanis aren’t any fonder of terrorists than the average American or Russian citizen is.

Do Muslims in these countries comprehend what freedom and democracy really mean? Do they understand how these concepts apply to them and their cause? Like, “I live in a country torn apart by sectarian violence. People want to kill me because they disagree with my interpretation of Islam. I would surely like to live in a place where I could practice my sect’s manners, without any competing sects trying to kill me.”

Do you realize that “freedom” and “democracy” are two separate concepts? Do you believe that different peoples have the right to freely choose different ways of life, or expect everybody to be fond of mom’s apple pie?

Every Muslim country seems to have the idea that other countries versions of Islam are “wrong.” As in, the people from country X pray the “wrong” way or the people in sect Y believe the “wrong” thing. Do they actually comprehend that other people believe that their way is correct? Or that the version of Islam they practice has more to do with an accident of geography in where they were born? Does it ever occur to them that other people feel fear and hate the same way they do, and just as they don’t like feeling oppressed, they can reasonably infer that other people might not like feeling oppressed, either?

You’re confusing the radical elements of different Islamic variants with the countries, as well as assuming that the radical elements are the only ones out there. Let’s take a little mental exercise.

Imagine you’re a Pakistani (since you seem to be fixated on them) of your same age, gender, profession, etc. And you run into, let’s see, a Lighthouse, a translation of a Tea Party document and a Jack Chick tract. Would you believe that “those weird Christians in the United States” are reasonable folk, or would you conclude that they are divided between “moderately nuts” and “flying almond trees”?

[madmonk28]

Okay, I’ll try to break this down. You said:

1. Muslims in third-world countries always seem ready to throw violent riots when they perceive their religion has been insulted. Do they ever realize that Western fear / anger towards Islam is rooted almost entirely in incidents of terrorism and violence perpetrated in Islam’s name? (snip)

Has it occurred to you that the US kills lots and lots of Muslim civilians? In Iraq alone, the US killed many more civilians than were killed on 9/11. Can you understand why they would be upset about that?

You said:
2) Pakistan’s government and its people always complain about their sovereignty and America being evil and so on and so forth. I see them raging and protesting the air campaign in their territory. Has Pakistan ever engaged in any sort of self-reflection about their role in sponsoring terrorism and their crimes against the West? (snip)

Do you understand that a lot of Pakistan’s support for terrorism grew out of the US’ first intervention in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion? The US armed and trained the movement that would become the Taliban. This movement also got a foothold in Pakistan. Do you acknowledge the role the US has played in promoting Pakistan’s terrorism problem?

you said:
3) Do Muslims in these countries comprehend what freedom and democracy really mean? Do they understand how these concepts apply to them and their cause? (snip)

Are you aware that the west, including the US has played a part in supressing democracy in the Muslim world? If you think the Muslim world doesn’t understand democracy is it because we have been supporting oppressive dictators at the expense of democracy in these countries?

You said:4) Every Muslim country seems to have the idea that other countries versions of Islam are “wrong.” (snip)

This statement just doesn’t coincide with my understanding of the Muslim world. I don’t really understand what you’re talking about.

[Der_Trihs]

@Chihuahua

1. Muslims in third-world countries always seem ready to throw violent riots when they perceive their religion has been insulted. Do they ever realize that Western fear / anger towards Islam is rooted almost entirely in incidents of terrorism and violence perpetrated in Islam’s name?

That’s nonsense; the West has feared and hated Islam for centuries simply because it isn’t Christianity. All that changes are the excuses given for hating it.

@Chihuahua

Maybe they aren’t just bombing us at random?

It is pretty much at random, and when it isn’t random it’s often worse, like bombing rescue workers, funerals and weddings.

@Chihuahua

3. Do Muslims in these countries comprehend what freedom and democracy really mean?

We’ve taught them that it means bloodshed and destruction, conquest and tyranny, poverty and American puppet dictators and exploitation by the West. The words have been poisoned by our actions.

@Chihuahua

4. Every Muslim country seems to have the idea that other countries versions of Islam are “wrong.”

Just like every Christian country, and every little subfaction in that country. Religions tend to be prone to factionalism; it’s not anything special about Islam.

[Happy_Fun_Ball]

Here is something that I have never really understood and it bugs me: How is it that Americans don’t understand that many Muslims have every reason to hate them? It always seems really hypocritical to me that Americans bemoan how hateful and full of rage and violence Muslims are with regards to America given the past:
[ol]
[li]American soldiers killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians during their invasion that was done on questionable pretense.[/li][li]The US has labelled Islamic countries as evil (part of the axis of evil) even though that country was actually helping us fight Al Qaeda and the Taliban at the time.[/li][li]The US has made a habit of supporting authoritarian regimes (Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Hosni Mubarak, etc…) much to the detriment of the citizens of the countries. They even went so far as to supply chemical weapons to Saddam that were used to gas his own people and people in Iran during the Iran Iraq war.[/li][li]The US actually went so far as to shoot down a civilian airliner, killing 290 innocent people, and never even apologized. [/li][li]Many politicians in the US call for attacking Muslim countries, like all the time.[/li][li]The US has repeatably used targeted assassination in Yeman, Somalia, and Pakistan many times with innocent casualties.[/li][li]The US government has supported US companies in exploiting national resources in Middle Eastern countries, even going so far as having the CIA orchestrate a coup to overthrow a regime that was trying to nationalize their oil industry.[/li][li]On a more personal level US citizens have protested mosques and Islamic community centers and even burned a couple of them to the ground.[/li][/ol]

I could go on, but I am sure you see the point.

[Batistuta]

@Happy_Fun_Ball

Here is something that I have never really understood and it bugs me: How is it that Americans don’t understand that many Muslims have every reason to hate them?

And yet most Muslims don’t hate Americans, which I believe is the key point here.

Throughout my travels around the world’s largest Muslim-majority country (Google it, some of you might be surprised) I sensed that attitudes towards the Western world and the USA ranged from ‘neutrality’ to ‘admiration’. I noted something similar in another Muslim-majority country, Malaysia, as well as in Singapore. And the nouveau riche of Qatar and the United Arab Emirates? They do their shopping in the USA.

Iran of course is a very different case. But I recall that for a while (early 20th century if I’m not mistaken) Iran and USA were pretty much best friends. Iranians saw the Americans as true allies who would not be tempted to invade them like the Ottomans, the Brits and the Russians had done in the past. Why that lovely relationship decayed so much is better left to a separate thread

[UDS]

@Batistuta

And yet most Muslims don’t hate Americans, which I believe is the key point here.

This.

Most Muslims don’t hate America. They often admire America, and envy the condition of Americans. They would often willingly exchange their own circumstances for the circumstances of Muslims living in America.

What they hate is what they perceive America to be doing to the rest of the world and, specifically, to the predominantly Muslim part of it.

[andros]

@UDS

This.

Most Muslims don’t hate America. They often admire America, and envy the condition of Americans. They would often willingly exchange their own circumstances for the circumstances of Muslims living in America.

What they hate is what they perceive America to be doing to the rest of the world and, specifically, to the predominantly Muslim part of it.

But…according to the OP, Muslims are stupid, ignorant, backwards, and hateful. So there.

[UDS]

Yes, but the OP plainly watches Fox News. And not for its entertainment value.

[madmonk28]

Where is the OP? I’d like to hear his/her response to some of the replies.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Looking at a map, hopefully.

[Annie-Xmas]

Let’s face facts: Fanatical extremists of any religion have caused more damage to the world than any other group. But that applies to all religions, not just Islam.

[Learjeff]

@Annie-Xmas

Let’s face facts: Fanatical extremists of any religion have caused more damage to the world than any other group. But that applies to all religions, not just Islam.

True. Furthermore, we shouldn’t expect those who foment hatred to be particularly rational. This applies to Muslim extremists and Fox News as well.

[Dissonance]

[quote=“Happy_Fun_Ball, post:6, topic:689489”]

[ol]
[li]The US has made a habit of supporting authoritarian regimes (Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Hosni Mubarak, etc…) much to the detriment of the citizens of the countries. They even went so far as to supply chemical weapons to Saddam that were used to gas his own people and people in Iran during the Iran Iraq war.[/ol][/li][/QUOTE]
Horseshit. The US did not supply Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons. Iraq made its own chemical weapons by buying the equipment to manufacture them; the equipment itself is dual use in that it has a legitimate use in the chemical industry, not just in the manufacture of chemical weapons. It’s hard to claim to have been unaware of the intended use though, and this resulted in three convictions for violating export laws - in Germany. 52% of the equipment used in Iraq’s chemical weapons programs came from Germany, 21% from France, and remainder from a wide variety of countries. The US hardly did much to support Saddam Hussein; it never supplied Iraq with weapons (much less chemical weapons) during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq’s primary weapons suppliers were in rough order the USSR, China and France.

[quote=“Happy_Fun_Ball, post:6, topic:689489”]

[ol]
[li]The US actually went so far as to shoot down a civilian airliner, killing 290 innocent people, and never even apologized.[/ol][/li][/quote]
Iran Air 655 was shot down in error when it was misidentified as an Iranian F-14 by the cruiser Vincennes, which was at the moment engaged in battle with Iranian gunboats. The US never apologized to the Iranian government. The United States government “expressed regret only for the loss of innocent life and did not make a specific apology to the Iranian government.”

[Bozuit]

The simplest answer to all your questions is that Islam is a religion, and a particularly bad one. Religions are an easy way to cause people to bypass thought and act dumb - something that people are inclined to do anyway, given half an excuse (e.g. nationalism).

That’s not to say it’s a complete answer. There are plenty of good arguments to be made about American evils in the world, but when people believe so strongly in exclusionary bullshit, they’ll act like morons anyway.

[andros]

@Bozuit

Islam is a religion, and a particularly bad one

On what do you base that claim?

[Bozuit]

@andros

On what do you base that claim?

I’m assuming you don’t mean the part about Islam being a religion.

The rest is based on the world. The terrorism, the beheadings, the sectarianism, the theocracies, the misogyny, the intolerance to criticism, the obsession with martyrdom, etc.

[Telemark]

@Bozuit

The rest is based on the world. The terrorism, the beheadings, the sectarianism, the theocracies, the misogyny, the intolerance to criticism, the obsession with martyrdom, etc.

You could apply all of those to Christianity at various times in its history as well.

[John_Mace]

[quote=“Happy_Fun_Ball, post:6, topic:689489”]

[LIST=1]
[li]American soldiers killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians during their invasion that was done on questionable pretense.[/li][/QUOTE]

It was not only American troops fighting in Iraq, and your cite just lists the number of people killed, not the number of people killed by US troops. Many Iraqis were killed by their fellow Iraqis.

If you’re going to lecture people on not being aware of the facts, you should not present factually incorrect data.