I pit NJ's soon to be Illegal Immigrant Help.

[Jimmy_Joe_Meager]

@Captain_Carrot

We are a nation of immigrants – all immigrants, not just the ones who got here first.

Jeeze, not this argument again. Ask the Native Americans how that worked out for them.

(Yeah, yeah, I know, I know… and they immigrated from Asia 10,000+ years ago, yadda yadda yadda.)

[Eva_Luna]

@Jimmy_Joe_Meager

A white paper published by an immigrant advocacy group is hardly convincing. Besides, that paper does support my position, but not yours. Thanks. Did you read it? It details the legal ways to immigrate.

What it also does is argue that there aren’t enough “legal” slots to satisfy all the people who actually want to come here. That’s a whole different argument.

Whether it is a different argument is highly relevant to your point, and in fact, disproves it. How is it not relevant that, for example, there are an estimated 12 million people in the U.S. with no legal status, but 5,000 green cards per year for people without specific, in-demand professional skills (which generally require at least a bachelor’s degreee)? Unless you are lucky enough to have a close family relationship to a U.S. citizen or permanent resident, in which case, if you’re lucky, it might only take you a couple of years to immigrate legally, but might also take decades?

I read this stuff nearly every day, thanks; I’ve been working in immigration-related fields since 1990, when I started in refugee resettlement, and have spent the past 10 years as of this May doing primarily work visas and employment-based green cards.

Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@mhendo

There’s a difference between arguing against someone’s position, on the one hand, and saying that they shouldn’t take a position that they feel is right, on the other. If someone doesn’t like current immigration policy, i completely support their right to argue against it, and to lobby against it, and to vote against it. But it doesn’t mean that i’m going to agree with the actual position they take, or that i won’t call their position “stupid” if that’s what i think of it.

Nobody is asking you to agree. The point here is that you can’t counter an the opposing viewpoint by merely stating that “the country” agrees with you, if you’ve defined the country’s agreement in that manner. And that is the context in which that point was made in this thread.

Isn’t that really true, though? I mean, we elect our representatives to make national policy on our behalf, so any and every policy they enact is, by definition, representative of the nation.

Sure, but it’s a pointless truism that is not relevant to a discussion of the issues. Anyone looking to change any public policy is looking to change something that “the country” currently agrees with. That fact carries not weight.

And, given their willingness to “take advantage of what [illegals] have to offer,” i think it’s perfectly reasonable to accuse them of rank hypocrisy when they start whining about illegals. If you really don’t want them here, then do your best to make sure that you are not part of the “pull” factor that attracts them in the first place.

This is a principle that has broader application and one that I don’t agree with. One person has a very limited ability to impact the world, and no ability to stop the world from impacting him. If one individual decides to not employ illegal aliens, this will have a minuscule impact on the population of illegal immigrants, and to the extent that this person is losing out by their presence he will continue to lose out as before. But he’ll also be cutting himself off from any possible benefit. No reason to do this.

(If WalMart opens a store next door to my house I would not be happy about it. But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t shop there.)

@hdc_bst

Second generation immigrants in general, I believe, tend to be hard working and productive. Are there any studies to support or deny this? Any studies that also include legality of parents?

I don’t know of any statistics. But if there are any, I would caution that they have to include only second generation immigrants who 1) came at a time when the current level of welfare/social support was available, and 2) were children of lower class parents (i.e. excluding the children of middle & upper class parents whose kids went to college and became engineers). If I am not mistaken, Hispanics in the US have a lower HS graduation rate than African-Americans. That is not promising.

[Bricker]

@DigitalC

Its moronic to assume illegal aliens are simply doing it the “wrong way”. You should consider yourself incredibly be lucky that your spouse had the option of coming to this country legally, for most people this is simply not an option. Don’t you dare compare a fucking application fee to risking your life in order to give your family a better life, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Nonsense.

A bank robber can “risk his life to give his family a better life,” but that doesn’t mean we should hold bank robbers blameless.

[Xan]

@Bricker

Nonsense.

A bank robber can “risk his life to give his family a better life,” but that doesn’t mean we should hold bank robbers blameless.

You’re a fucking retard.

[Jimmy_Joe_Meager]

@Cheesesteak

Both speeding and immigration laws are poorly enforced, which is an indication that the government doesn’t really care all that much about the law being broken, just as long as you don’t go crazy with it. Illegal immigrants generally do tough work for low pay, keep their heads down and try to not attract too much attention.

Valid points. My replies…

4. When I get caught speeding, “The speed limit was too low!” is not a valid defense. When illegal immigrants get arrested, “The legal quota was too low!” is also not a valid defense.

5. I don’t expect other people to subsidize my speeding. My speeding, generally speaking and, like you said, as long as I don’t go crazy with it, generally doesn’t cost anybody else anything. As has already been pointed out, not only do illegal immigrants consume expensive, obvious services like healthcare, but they also depress wages for other working class citizens. My speeding, again as long as I don’t go crazy with it, doesn’t affect your rate of speed. (Imperfect analogy, I know.)

[Jimmy_Joe_Meager]

@Captain_Carrot

And expecting someone to live in abject poverty (which is the case for a hell of a lot of people in Central and South America who want to come to the US) and condemn their family to the same, instead of breaking the law to try to get a job in a country that actually has them, is an absurd choice.

As I have said before, I am sympathetic to their plight AND I don’t think we can absorb and support everyone who wants to be here. Those two ideas are not mutually exclusive, nor contradictory.

[Bricker]

@Xan

You’re a fucking retard.

Well, you certainly rebutted my argument effectively there.

Now that you have me wriggling in the crushing grip of reason, perhaps you might offer one or two more details of your argument? You know – just to complete the evisceration?

[Xan]

@Bricker

Well, you certainly rebutted my argument effectively there.

Now that you have me wriggling in the crushing grip of reason, perhaps you might offer one or two more details of your argument? You know – just to complete the evisceration?

There is a huge fucking difference between robbery and crossing an arbitrary border.

[Jimmy_Joe_Meager]

@Miller

If they’re coming here to work, then we’re not playing welfare state to them, are we?

As has been previously pointed out, generally speaking the quality of life for the illegal immigrant is raised, but the quality of life for *citizens *is lowered (via lower wages). So in that sense yes, we are playing welfare state to them.

[Bricker]

@Captain_Carrot

And expecting someone to live in abject poverty (which is the case for a hell of a lot of people in Central and South America who want to come to the US) and condemn their family to the same, instead of breaking the law to try to get a job in a country that actually has them, is an absurd choice. We are a nation of immigrants – all immigrants, not just the ones who got here first.

My father came here from El Salvador, where he lived in abject poverty. Yet somehow he refused to stay when his visa expired, but returned to EL Salvador and worked on coming here legally.

Why was this an absurd choice?

[Eva_Luna]

@Bricker

My father came here from El Salvador, where he lived in abject poverty. Yet somehow he refused to stay when his visa expired, but returned to EL Salvador and worked on coming here legally.

Why was this an absurd choice?

But apparently he *had * the choice; are you denying the fact that the vast majority of the human race does not have that choice?

(And out of professional curiosity, how did he qualify?)

[mhendo]

@Shecky

As a the spouse of a LEGAL immigrant, I can’t help but feel this is a slap in the face for everyone who did it the right way.

I forgot to respond to this earlier.

As someone who is currently in the process of legally becoming a US resident, my experience with the whole process gives me precisely the opposite viewpoint. I completely understand why a poor person without much English, without much money, with little formal education, would do all he or she could to avoid the process.

I am, in many ways, probably one of the most unproblematic immigration cases that the US immigration people have to deal with.
[ul]
[li]i’m married to a US citizen, so am not subject to quotas[/li][li]we had been married and living together for over 4 years before i even put in my residency application, making it unlikely that my marriage is one of mere convenience[/li][li]i’m from a country that is not among those considered problematic by US authorities[/li][li]my first language is English[/li][li]i’m have a college and postgraduate education[/li][li]my wife has a solid, professional job that pays, by itself, around the US median household income[/li][/ul]And even for me, the immigration process is a byzantine, labyrinthine succession of forms and tests and evidence and photocopies and pictures and statements. And it’s fucking expensive.

As i said, our household income is around the US median, but we have student loan debts and credit card debts from grad school, and we live in a reasonably expensive city, so we need every dollar we can get. Simply applying for my residency cost me the better part of $2000.

• $930 for Form I-485 Application to Register Permanent Residence or Adjust Status
• $80 for biometrics (fingerprints, etc.)
• $355 for Form I-130 Petition for Alien Relative
• $470 for medical inspections, vaccinations, etc.
• $40 for passport photos of me and my wife

I’m not saying these charges are unreasonable or unjustified; i’m just saying that i completely understand why an illegal immigrant from Latin America or Asia or Eastern Europe might not think it worthwhile to pay them, and then to gather and present all the evidence required to convince the USCIS that they are worthy of being allowed into the country.

For someone like me, the benefits of doing it properly far outweigh the disadvantages. The jobs i want to apply for are the sort of jobs where employers do check your status, and i also have a wife who i don’t want to get into trouble with US authorities. But plenty of illegals have no such incentive; for them, the costs and the difficulty make doing it right a far less attractive option.

[Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:

Every time I hear in the news about something that Gov. Corzine has done, I always agree 100%.

[Jimmy_Joe_Meager]

Captain Carrot, I have a hypothetical question for you.

Would you let an illegal immigrant, whom you do not know, live in your house? He (or she) is clean, sober, decent folk, hard working, and does pay you a modest rent (but which is slightly less than you could get renting that room to someone else).

Would you let that person live in your house? One person?

OK.

How about two? Decent, clean, sober, hard working, pays a little rent. Two OK?

Three? What’s wrong with three? I mean c’mon… they’re decent, clean, sober, hard working folk! How dare you discriminate against them!

Four?

Five?

Seventeen?

At what point do you say “I’m doing all that I can. I simply can not take in anybody else. Regardless of their dire situation, there is simply no more room in my house”?

And does that make you a bad person? The fact, fact mind you, that there are decent, clean, sober, hard working people living in *abject poverty *that you will not let into your home. Does that make *you *a bad person?

My argument is that we, as a country, have reached, in my opinion, the number of people we can accommodate. The fact that there are still impoverished people somewhere in the world that we can’t take in doesn’t make me, or any of us, a bad person.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Eva_Luna

But apparently he *had * the choice; are you denying the fact that the vast majority of the human race does not have that choice?

But just because somebody’s life would improve if they could immigrate to the United States doesn’t neccesarily mean that the United States should accomodate them. I’m not saying that people who come to the country illegally are acting irrationally, or even are bad people, but the US has the right to control its borders and decide who has the right to enter and live here.

[Eva_Luna]

@Captain_Amazing

But just because somebody’s life would improve if they could immigrate to the United States doesn’t neccesarily mean that the United States should accomodate them. I’m not saying that people who come to the country illegally are acting irrationally, or even are bad people, but the US has the right to control its borders and decide who has the right to enter and live here.

That’s a totally separate issue from the OP, though, which is about a state’s decision, in accordance with the political process, to grant in-state tuition benefits to a subset of that population, one whose parents made that decision.

I’m just trying to dispel some of the vast ignorance about the realities of the U.S. immigration system, and the consequences thereof, that have cropped up along the way.

[Marienee]

@mhendo

I
As someone who is currently in the process of legally becoming a US resident, my experience with the whole process gives me precisely the opposite viewpoint. I completely understand why a poor person without much English, without much money, with little formal education, would do all he or she could to avoid the process…

Hear, hear. We started the process for Dearly Beloved to become a permanent resident in 1996. When we moved to Holland in 2002, the Agency Formerly Known as INS was not done. They finally invited us for an interview in 2003, about a year after we terminated the process.

The process required, amoung other things, the intervention of our Congresscritter on two different occasions – just to get the agency to do what it was required to do.

I’ll say it for you: the process is unreasonable, and it is unjustified. Six years and thousands of dollars to get an uncontroversial petition approved is beyond the pale.

[Malthus]

@Eva_Luna

That’s a totally separate issue from the OP, though, which is about a state’s decision, in accordance with the political process, to grant in-state tuition benefits to a subset of that population, one whose parents made that decision.

I’m just trying to dispel some of the vast ignorance about the realities of the U.S. immigration system, and the consequences thereof, that have cropped up along the way.

Not that seperate. As mhendo mentioned, the system seems designed to incentivize illegal immigration. Adding benefits to the families of illegal immigrants is a further incentive (again, totally ignoring any justice issues for the moment).

Seems to me that what ought to be done is either or both of:

1. Making the “legal” system more useable and available; and/or

2. Creating harsher dis-incentives to illegal immigration.

Adding an incentive to illegal immigration while keeping the system as-is makes no sense (though of course it may be no less than just to the kids).

[Captain_Carrot]

That’s a false analogy, Jimmy Joe. (And I don’t own a house.) A house has a definite, pre-defined limit on the number of people it can support. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, houses are usually built with a certain size of family in mind. The same is not true for countries.