Cuckoorex, in a different thread, used the phrase “the Little Timmy argument”. It went something like “Little Timmy was a good kid. A saint, in fact. But, due to the unfortunate circumstances of his birth, he had no choice but to support himself by unlawful means. And… then… <sniff> *tha man *beat him down! Poor little Timmy! Won’t someone think of the children!”
Your argument seems to be of the Little Timmy variety. Yes, his home country sucks. Even so, this country can’t and shouldn’t be the solution for every person in the world who’s country sucks. By my (admittedly unscientific) estimate, there are a billion or three people in the world today who’s standard of living is far, far below the average of the U.S. Can they all come here?
No, but maybe we can afford to take on more than 5,000 per year.
This is where the law and order side falls apart. The level of restriction in legal immigration is so high as to be completely divorced from the reality of the desire of immigrants to live/work here and the desire of businesses to hire them. When the law is not realistic, people will not follow it.
I know you’re not talking about me, because I, personally, am not entitled to anything. I see it as a blessing, and a random fate, that I’ve been born a citizen of the USA. The fact that my standard of living is so high is a simple fact, not an entitlement. I fully expect that if I just sit back on my ass and do (A) nothing to support myself and (B) do nothing to support my country then yes, my standard of living will fall. It isn’t an entitlement, it’s a privilege.
Huh? I suspect that if I agreed to do unskilled manual labor at $1/hr less than my competition I’d get the job. It isn’t that I can’t, it’s that I choose not to.
OK, you’re veering into teh crazy here. Because I happened to be born here and he happened to be born there, I’m not allowed to compete with him? That really makes no sense.
And it annoys the rest of us that you boil this entire argument down to your cheap burgers and their better life. News FLASH Einstein – it’s far more complicated than that.
'scuse me? Their “home country” is where, again? “Won’t somebody think of the children!!!”
OK, this sealed it. You really, really don’t know what you’re talking about. Adios.
What I said is that different programs are run by different agencies. Each agency has data for it’s own program, but no one is responsible for gathering data about the cumulative affect of the various independently-run programs.
Again, I’m talking about different programs.
Here’s a simple example.
Two guys walk in to the offices of Social Program A. Guy #1 is making $10,000 by working part time and $20,000 through a combination of various other programs. Guy #2 is making $25,000, all from the sweat of his brow. The caseworker, in assessing eligibility and subsidy levels for Program A treats Guy #1 as having “income” of $10,000, and he is considered “poorer” and a higher priority for assistance, and Guy #2 is treated as having income of $25,000 and with lower priority and entitlement levels, though in reality Guy #1 has more money (or the equivalent) coming in than Guy #2.
Rent is paid by HUD/Section 8. Utilities are paid by HEAP.
You can look all this stuff up, if you’re interested.
Yes. Almost all people are lazy. You seem to be a rare exception.
You ignored what I wrote.
Lazy people (IOW virtually all people) will work hard if they have to. They won’t work hard to the extent that they have easier options.
They can. But it’s not likely that they will see this as a realistic option.
When it is our law, they have no reason or obligation to abide by it? By American law, only X number of immigrants are allowed into the country per year. And you say that if an immigrant doesn’t agree with that law, they have no obligation to abide by it? That’s astounding. Really. Am I allowed to ignore laws that I disagree with? Are you?
I believe this is factually incorrect. I think you’re just thinking of business groups and Republicans as one indistinguishable group.
This issue actually breaks across ordinary fault lines, with Republicans and labor unions generally anti-illegal and Democrats and business groups pro. That’s one reason nothing gets done about it.
There is some truth to this. On the one hand it would ostensibly encourage more illegal immigration. OTOH, if you combined this with rigorous penalties for hiring illegals, no corporation would want to hire them. Nothing to gain.
The problem is that the corporations are not always able to tell who is or is not illegal, what with the proliferation of phony IDs these days. If that problem could be surmounted, it would be a lot easier. Although a lot of illegals are employed by small companies that would fall under the radar.
Maybe you don’t fall into the “they took our jobs!” crowd. If not, then that paragraph doesn’t apply.
Uh, yeah that’s the point. A person born and raised in America should be shooting at a much more skilled position than an illegal immigrant.
No, you’re veering into the crappy reading comprehension here. I don’t compete with illegal immigrants for my job because I took advantage of the American education system and I have a million times more skills than an illegal immigrant.
No, it’s really not.
Their home country is the one they grew up in, and the only one they know.
Uh, I’m pretty sure I do. That story is the story of my family, and millions of others like it. I play the role of the 3rd generation, and you can’t tell me apart from a 10th generation American.
What do you mean by this last? Are you saying the immigrants are easily distinguished from non-immigrants, even many generations removed? How exactly is that done? Is there a ‘look’, a ‘walk’, a ‘style’, what?
The answer depends somewhat on the state in question, but generally it depends on their own immigration status. If the students are US citizens or permanent residents, they are treated just like any other US citizens or permanent residents. Currently, as far as I know, most states do not award in-state tuition rates to students who are not permanent residents or US citizens, even if they are residing legally in the US (see my previous example about people who are merely waiting for their green cards to be approved, becuse of processing and quota-related backlogs).
There’s no doubt that in the past 3rd generation immigrants have been vitually indistinguishable from 10th generation. Whether this will continue to be true for the current wave of Hispanic immigrants is an open question.
The basis for this uncertainty is that the current level of support for the Spanish language is unparralleled by anything in the history of the US.
Ummm, the same place they come from when they are created by US citizens and permanent residents - tax payments and demand created by increased population. You know both of those items tend to multiply throughout the eoconomy, right?
I have to go now - I’m leaving town on vacation tomorrow, and I have to finish up a bunch of work visas on the meantime. So if I don’t respond to everything, it’s not because I’m wilfully ignoring anyone.
I don’t think is uncertain at all. I have met many people in Miami with Spanish last names, who are the children of immigrants from Cuba and who don’t speak a word of English. Their parents do, but they have moved on.
Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn. African-Americans. Chinese-Americans. Italian-Americans. Greek-Americans (Astoria, Queens). There are communities where some (some) members tend to marry others of their ethnic background, even for several generations, even here in America, and they do retain specific cultural ‘markers’ (e.g. foods, religions, political opinions, manner of dress), even for several generations, even here in America.
Not really, I don’t know much about cultural groups in the US.
So what you’re saying is not that you can tell immigrants just by looking at them, but that ‘some’ immigrants retain cultural markers, and that makes them easy to spot, correct? So what kind of cultural markers do African-Americans retain that allows you to spot their ‘immigrant’ status?
Or Italian-Americans? Do they wear specific clothing that makes them stand out?
So what is your point? That people who break the law do so based on the probability of getting caught and the consequences? Well, duh. But what is the policy that you propose? Unfettered immigration, allowing priority for skilled labors, being more/less draconian, increasing quotas (if so, for what groups: there are about 15x more Chinese and Indians than Mexicans)?
I’m coming into this thread late, so forgive me if this has been addressed already.
In this scenario, how are the kids of aliens going to be any different than the kids of long time residents? Every citizen can utilize those programs. I’m pretty certain that no one would expect a caste system when the children of minimum (or sub-minimum) wage workers are expected or limited to performing the same work and pay as their parents.
In previous waves of immigration, if you didnt speak english, tough shit for you.
There was quite an incintive to learn at least rudimentary english.
Today? Shit, you can probably get a degree from some liberal university without ever learning english (somewhat of an exageration).
Which I despise. Come here, learn English damnit.
Instead we catter to Spanish speakers. But what about the Russians?. Lithuanians?. Zulus? Aliens from Morbo?
If there were only 2 or 3 languages in the world it would be one thing. But geezus on a pogo stick. Are the natives here supposed to learn and cater to dozens if not hundreds of OTHER languages.
YOU wanted to come HERE. YOU learn the language of HERE.