I pit president Bush; with blood on his hands.

[FinnAgain]

Goddamn!
Sorry for the length of the last few responses, I’ll attempt to format 'em better in the future.

[Uzi]

@FinnAgain

Damn, I’m sorry for all that.
Not quite sure what else to say on that front, hang in there.

Thanks, but shit happens and you have to deal with it. Sometimes the thought process gets muddled, though.

But, if your interrogation tactics produce two terrorists for every one that you smoke out?
If they turn the entire country against you?

You have never been to the ME have you? I work here. In almost the same breath that someone says it is okay to lop someones head off they can say it is wrong to do what happened in the prision in Iraq. If you are looking for dependable logic here look elsewhere. I saw an interview with 3 prominent clerics a year or more ago. They were from Saudi. The interviewer asked them what the reason was for the attack on the WTC. They said it was the US going into Afghanistan after the Taliban… See a problem with that statement? That doesn’t mean that everyone in the ME are idiots, not by a long shot, it is just that some get blinded by their faith and culture, see Alderban as a prime example.
They don’t need a reason to hate you! Just being there is enough.

So, it looks like you’re defending the idea of torture in certain circumstances, just not those that went down in Iraq?

It’s shitty, I know. But when I was in the army I decided that if I was in a shooting war, I’d make sure me and mine came out of it alive no matter what I had to do to guarantee that. Luckily I never had to put this into action because I never saw any.

Mmm…
Still, what’s happening in Iraq is losing us the war. I mean… when you turn that nation against you that you’re trying to get on your side, you’re failing.
Right?

Certainly that is part of it, but it gets back to what I was saying earlier. If you aren’t willing to do what is necessary to win the war you will lose no matter who you have on your side. And if in the middle of it by concentrating on these sorts of things (not that they don’t deserve attention) you end up demoralizing the people at home who, in most cases, would support getting the job done. If the President today called for more troops to finish the job (enough to shutdown the terrorists) would he get it? Would he get it tomorrow if these allegations are proven true? I’d suggest for the first, maybe. In the latter scenario, not likely. You’d end up with a long scandal if not outright impeachment that would remove all focus from the war entirely and thus you’d lose it.

[FinnAgain]

@Uzi

You have never been to the ME have you?

Several times actually.

@Uzi

I work here. In almost the same breath that someone says it is okay to lop someones head off they can say it is wrong to do what happened in the prision in Iraq. If you are looking for dependable logic here look elsewhere.

Why’s that illogical?
Chopping off heads is just another way of attempting to administer justice, torture is torture is torture.

@Uzi

I saw an interview with 3 prominent clerics a year or more ago. They were from Saudi. The interviewer asked them what the reason was for the attack on the WTC. They said it was the US going into Afghanistan after the Taliban… See a problem with that statement? That doesn’t mean that everyone in the ME are idiots, not by a long shot, it is just that some get blinded by their faith and culture,

Yes, some hate us just because they hate us.
But that doesn’t mean we need to give reasons to the rest.

@Uzi

It’s shitty, I know. But when I was in the army I decided that if I was in a shooting war, I’d make sure me and mine came out of it alive no matter what I had to do to guarantee that. Luckily I never had to put this into action because I never saw any.

All in all that’s a good plan, however we’re making things more difficult, not less, for our troops in Iraq.

@Uzi

Certainly that is part of it, but it gets back to what I was saying earlier. If you aren’t willing to do what is necessary to win the war you will lose no matter who you have on your side.

But in this case, what’s necessary is to get them on our side.
Catch 22, eh

@Uzi

And if in the middle of it by concentrating on these sorts of things (not that they don’t deserve attention) you end up demoralizing the people at home who, in most cases, would support getting the job done.

I support getting the job done.
Our current practices will cause us to fail, however.
So we have to stop, or we’ll lose.

@Uzi

If the President today called for more troops to finish the job (enough to shutdown the terrorists) would he get it?

Seeing as how we’re pretty much maxed out, my guess is no.

@Uzi

. You’d end up with a long scandal if not outright impeachment that would remove all focus from the war entirely and thus you’d lose it.

From your mouth to God’s ear!
(on the impeachment bit, not losing the war)

If Bush is out, I don’t think that means we lose the war. Nor do I think it’d change our focus.

[Squink]

@Ryan_Liam

How many soldiers are dying every week?

On average, barring a major atrocity, around 2-3 and thats only in major attacks.

You’re off by a factor of 7. It’s been 2-3 a day for some months now. The death rate was never as low as you claim.

[Uzi]

@FinnAgain

What part of “the current strategy we’re using is not only not winning the war, it is losing it.” do you not understand?

You are losing it because you won’t do what is required to win it! What part of that didn’t you understand? That doesn’t mean butchery, but it could mean about 4-10 times the amount of troops on the ground to find the terrorists, or drive them out of business. No amount of lovey dovey is going to change that.

Yes, there is a flaw in your reasoning, and/or reading comp.
No, there were no WMD, so that reason was bogus.
No, there were no AQ connections, so that reason was bogus.
No, it’s not for the sake of the Iraqis, so that reason was bogus.

Which leads me to conclude that there is another reason, one which the public was never informed of.

Probably because the people who wanted the war are idiots and thought that there was either: AQ connections (who cares Saddam was enough), WMD, or doing it for the sake of the Iraqis.

Scum is scum is scum.
You don’t instill freedom and justice via totalitarianism.

No, but you can create the stability needed to put in place the necessary changes that will allow a future democracy to actually work. Right now is chaos.

Um, I must’ve missed the part where you don’t support it.
As you’ve been arguing in support of it.

No, I have been arguing that if you go to war, win it. Don’t bitch about little shit while you are doing it because the little shit happens in all wars and doing so saps the will of the people at home. At least that is what I think I have been arguing. I’m getting lost in the length of these replies.

And, the fact that ‘benevolent’ tyrants don’t bother you much speaks volumes.

I live in Canada. That pretty much describes our government.

You’re making this too easy kid.

Well you got me on a figure of speech. Yay, you. Obviously Saddam hasn’t been alive for ever, so at some point a person before him ruled Iraq, whether that person was better or worse than SH I guess doesn’t matter for the purpose of this discussion. Once Saddam took power he was the dictator and could do what he wanted (yes, he probably had to consolidate his power before he had complete control).

[QUOTE]
No, they weren’t slaves, or serfs.
And they have the right to self government regardless of what happened under the rule of a tyrant.
Sorry.

[QUOTE]

Sure they have the right. I’m not saying they don’t. But should it be right after SH? Do they have the ability to choose someone who is capable of running Iraq based upon criteria other than told to them by the local cleric, or that the person belongs to their tribe? You guys in the US have been voting for over 200 years and you still ended up with Bush. What do you expect from people who don’t have that history? Hey, I guess you can say it would still be there choice if they end up with another dictator, or a theocracy, but it pretty much makes what bit of the war that could have meaning, as in freeing the people and establishing a democracy, meaningless, doesn’t it?

[FinnAgain]

@Uzi

You are losing it because you won’t do what is required to win it! What part of that didn’t you understand? That doesn’t mean butchery, but it could mean about 4-10 times the amount of troops on the ground to find the terrorists, or drive them out of business. No amount of lovey dovey is going to change that.

America doesn’t have that many more troops, so we can’t do that.
What is required for us to win is to not keep doing things as we’ve been doing them.
That seems fairly simple, no?

@Uzi

Probably because the people who wanted the war are idiots and thought that there was either: AQ connections (who cares Saddam was enough), WMD, or doing it for the sake of the Iraqis.

I don’t buy any of those reasons.
Not for a heartbeat.

@Uzi

No, but you can create the stability needed to put in place the necessary changes that will allow a future democracy to actually work. Right now is chaos.

Someone could create that stability, the United States cannot.
And if the ‘stability’ you create is simply the rule of another dictator, we’ve done no good.

@Uzi

No, I have been arguing that if you go to war, win it. Don’t bitch about little shit while you are doing it because the little shit happens in all wars and doing so saps the will of the people at home.

Yes, but in order to win a war, you don’t want to galvanize and unite the nation against you.
And the will of the people at home should be sapped for a stupid war, people should be sick and tired of it and demanding a better way to go about it.

At least that is what I think I have been arguing. I’m getting lost in the length of these replies.

@Uzi

I live in Canada. That pretty much describes our government.

You’re kidding me, right?
I’m being wooshed?
Canada’s government is a benevolent dictatorship?

@Uzi

Well you got me on a figure of speech. Yay, you. Obviously Saddam hasn’t been alive for ever, so at some point a person before him ruled Iraq, whether that person was better or worse than SH I guess doesn’t matter for the purpose of this discussion. Once Saddam took power he was the dictator and could do what he wanted (yes, he probably had to consolidate his power before he had complete control).

Okay, but I don’t see how this gets at your original point.

@Uzi

Sure they have the right. I’m not saying they don’t. But should it be right after SH? Do they have the ability to choose someone who is capable of running Iraq based upon criteria other than told to them by the local cleric, or that the person belongs to their tribe?

Yes it should be right away, that’s part of giving them their rights. They have the right to vote on someone even if we don’t agree on their choice, even if their choice is bad for them.

@Uzi

You guys in the US have been voting for over 200 years and you still ended up with Bush. What do you expect from people who don’t have that history?

To be allowed to vote and take their lumps.

@Uzi

Hey, I guess you can say it would still be there choice if they end up with another dictator, or a theocracy, but it pretty much makes what bit of the war that could have meaning, as in freeing the people and establishing a democracy, meaningless, doesn’t it?

Well, they may very well end up with a theocracy.
Don’t you see the paradox?
If they vote for a theocracy, how on earth can we claim it’s in the interests of freedom and democracy to squash their freely and democraticly elected theocratic government?

[Ryan_Liam]

The Iraqis hate the American forces and believe we’re up to no good

Let me type real slowly and say some do, some don’t and some are sitting on the fence.

We’ve spent any good will we had, and we’re rapidly working on uniting the entire ME against us.

Happened before Iraq anyway. Remember Palestine? 9/11?

With a multi-national peacekeeping force comprising muslims and non-muslims, we would have a much better shot, especially with America out of the picture

Probably, but what would more than likely happen is that the attacks would intensify as one of the insurgents objective was to kill as many Soldiers as possible to make it unviable to stay, since that objective floundered, they’ve started to kill Iraqi government officials, the difference between an American and European army is that the US has the will to stay whilst the course is rough, where as the Europeans would just leave.

Now that does not strike me as being particulary difficult.

So you did. Words fail me :rolleyes:

See, your favored policies will yield only more destruction and death, we’ve seen that, we know that. So if anybody wants destruction in order to prove a point, it is you.

Retarded, seriously, what you want is in comparison to what happened when the US supported the muhajadeen once the Russians left, and we all know what happened in Afghanistan right? And who had to come back and sort it all out? The Americans!?!

See, France and Russia had commercial interests in Iraq, but there were still no WMD there and we used the pretext of WMD to sell the war at the UN via Powel.

So why should then the US give them commerical contracts when they didn’t do anything to secure the liberation of Iraq ‘smart’ one?

And how’re them thar elections and interim government members coming along?

?? I told you to go to Chernkoff, but despite your attitude about blogs I’ll show you.

The latest poll of 5,000 people taken in and around Baghdad, suggests that an overwhelming majority is prepared to make a clean break with the past and pursue democracy - now. Some of the specific results:

"What will you base your vote on?
Political agenda - 65%
Factional origin - 14%
Party Affiliation - 4%
National Background - 12%
Other reasons - 5%

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008929.php

Kansas City Breaking News & Sports | The Kansas City Star

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-12/14/content_2330556.htm

Theres all the candidates

Assembly of Independent Democrats led by Adnan Pachachi.

The Assembly For Iraq led by Dr. Raad Mawlood.

Islamic Da’wa Party In Iraq led by Dr. Ibrahim Al-Ja’fari.

Islamic Virtue Party led by Dr. Nadim Al-Jabiri.

Centrist Assembly Party led by Mahmood Mohammed.

Islamic Work Organization led by Ibrahim Al-Muttairi.

Al-Mehrab martyr For Islamic Information Organization led by Ammar Al-Hakim.

Iraqi Islamic Party led by Dr. Muhsin Abd Al-Hameed.

Badr Organization led by Hadi Al-Amiri.

Turkmen Elee Party led by Ryath Jamal.

Iraqi Turkmen National Party led by Jamal Mohammed.

Democratic National Party led by Naseer Al-Jadirji.

Supreme Council of Islamic Revolution led Abd Al-Aziz Al-Hakim.

Movement of Independent Turkmen led by Kenaan Shakir.

Democratic Assembly of Iraqi Tribes led by Ghalib Sa’ood.

Iraq Assembly of National Unity led by Dr. Nehro Mohammed.

Iraqi Assembly For Democracy led by Raheem Al-Sa’edi.

Iraqi Communist Party led by Hameed Majeed.

Islamic Union of Iraqi Turkmen led by Abbas Al-Byati.

Assembly of Justice and Equality led by Suhail Al-Jazae’ri.

Islamic Union of Philean Iraqi Kurds led by Tha’r Al-Philee.

Prince Ahmed Tah Ahmed Yaseen Mahmood.

Assyrian National Party led by Samrood Beto.

Islamic Movement of Iraqi Turkmen led by Dr. Sami 'Aryan.

Iraqi Democrats Movement led by Dr. Qasim Abbas.

Free Democratic Country Party led by Haithem Al-Hasani.

Iraqi National Assembly led by Dr. Hussein Al-Jibouri.

Islamic Da’wa Party - Iraq Organization led by Abd Al-Kareem Al-'Anzi.

Movement of Hizbella (Party of Allah) in Iraq led by Hasan Al-Sari.

Justice and Democratic Advancement Party led by Sami Falih.

Loyal Iraqis Society led by Sa’ad Yahya.

Islamic Philee Assembly in Iraq led by Miqdad Al-Baghdadi.

Democratic Assembly of Iraq led by Farqad Al-Qazwini.

Islamic Heralds Party led by Ali Al-Yasiri.

Unity Party led by Mobdir Salman.

Turkmen Loyalty Movement led by Feryad Omar.

Kurdistani Democratic Solution Party led by Fa’aq Mohammed.

Amer Ali Hussein Owaid Al-Murshidi.

Turkmen National Movement led by Husam Al-Deen Ali.

Iraqi Turkmen Justice Party led by Anwar Hameed.

Ali Mua’yad Hussein Al-Qaisi.

Democratic Qasimi Assembly led by Qasim Al-Janabi.

Liberal Phileen Kurds Organization led by Shamil Darweesh.

Iraqi Republican Assembly led by Sa’ad Al-Janabi.

Democratic Islamic Stream led by Hussien Al-Adili.

Council of Iraqi Lords led by Nazar Al-Khaizaran.

Democratic National Coalition led by Dr. Malik Al-Hasan.

National Baith-Nahrain Union led by Korkis Khoshaba.

Iraq Party of Allah (Hizbella) led by Abd Al-Kareem Al-Mohamedani.

Liberal Republicans Party led by Hussein Al-Mosawi.

Democratic Establishment Party led by Asaad Al-Ibadi.

Liberal Civilian Officers Movement led by Najeeb Al-Salihi.

Islamic Da’wa Movement led by Adil Abd Al-Raheem.

Assembly of The Future Iraq led by Dr. Ibrahim Al-Aloom.

Iraqi Elites Assembly led by Mohammed Ghaza’l.

Assembly of Independents in Wasit led by Abd Al-Kareem Jawad.

Arabic Socialist Movement led by Abd Al-Ilah Al-Nasrawi.

Liberation and Reconciliation Front led by Mish’an Al-Jibouri.

Assyrian Democratic Movement led by Yonadim Khana.

Hasan Jawad Amana.

Ali Mahsoon Husseini Bander Al-Fitlawi.

Mush’al Awad Al-Sari.

Muhsin Habib Shamkhi Al-Ka’bi.

Hamza Mohammed Jasim Ja’far Al-Aqabi.

Banner of Independents led by Munir Ahmed.

loyalty For Najaf led by Adnan Abd Khithaer.

National Front For Iraq’s Unity led by Hasan Al-Lahibi.

Ali Abd Hamza Al-Timimi.

Abd Al-Sattar Al-Qat’ Al-Abodi.

Independent Babylon Society led by Salim Kathim.

Ali Muslim Jar Allah Ali Al-Bithani.

Movement of Independent Syriac Assembly led by Yasho’ Hajd.

The Prophet Institution led by Khathim Majeed.

Ibrahim Khalil Sa’eed Al-Isawi.

Engineer Sheik Khalifa Al-Haj Saddam Shabib Al-Bithani.

Mohammed Rashad Al-Fadl.

Ali Talal Ali.

Democratic National Coalition led by Sameer Shakir Mahmood.

Assembly of Grandsons of Twenties Revolution led by Abd Al-Hussein Al-Yasiri.

Constitutional Royalty led Al-Shareef Ali Abd Al-Hussein.

Ibrahim Zayon Mohammed Al-Mosawi.

Iraqi National Accord led by Ayad Allawi.

League of Iraqi Turkmen Lords and Tribes led by Abd Al-Hammed Al-Bayati.

First Democratic National Party led by Hadeem Al-Haj Hamood.

Iraqi National Congress led by Ahmed Al-Chalabi.

Iraqi National Liberation Movement.

Abd Al-Amir Obis Al-Sabah.

Assembly of Missan Independent Sons led Mohammed Hantoosh.

Engineer Mosa Muhsin Idris Al-Yasiri.

Husseini Thought Forum.

Imam Ali Society.

Iraqi National Rescue Party.

Islamic Reconciliation Movement.

National Brotherhood Movement.

Iraqi Independent Assembly For Liberation and Establishment.

Assembly of Iraqi Independent Statement.

Chaldean National Congress.

Kurdistani National Union.

Islamic Independent National Assembly.

Christian Democratic Party.

The Nation Party.

Kurdistan Tikishani Zahma Party.

National League of Leaders and Sheiks of Iraqi Tribes.

Al-Ridha Center For Culture For Guidance.

Malik Abd Al-Hussein Ghafoori.

Muthana Fadhil Mohammed Ibrahim.

Hikmet Dawood Hakeem.

Ibrahim Shafik Khalil Ibrahim Al-Basri.

Islamic Conference of Iraqi Tribes.

Independent National Elites and Cadres.

Conference of United Democratic Iraq.

Independent Islamic League.

Assembly of Al-Furat Al-Awsat.

Free Caller Assembly.

Sheik Sa’doon Ghulam Ali Abd Al-Karim Al-Lami.

Kurdistani National Stream.

Humanitarian Society For Retirees.

Iraqi National Movement.

Kurdistani Conservatives Party.

Independent Iraqi Front.

Falah Hasan Abd Al-Amir AlArithi.

Ahmed Hasan Mahmood.

Kurdistani Islamic Movement - Iraq.

Iraqis led by Ghazi Al-Yawar.

National Assembly of Centrist Stream.

Democratic Iraqi Nation Party.

Najat Fadhil Abbas.

Engineer Baqir Al-Baqir.

United National Coalition.

Independents List.

Assyrian National Assembly.

Independent League For Democracy Care.

Independent Advanced National Front.

Irsal Ghalaf Hassoon Al-Karawi.

Public Union For Iraqi Youth.

Independent Brothers

Iraqi National Brotherhood Party.

Nizar Talib Abd Al-Kareem.

Monathil Jasim Hasan Al-Allaf.

Movement of Democratic Society.

Front of Sha’ban Iraq Uprising in 1991.

Al-Sayed Kathim Jasim Ali Al-Fathili Al-Husseini.

Ghalib Muhsin Abd Hussein Al-Sabahi

Movement of New Iraq.

Mohammed Daham Nazal.

Independent Nationalists.

Elites In Diyala.

National Assembly.

Loyalty Assembly For Iraq.

Democratic Joint Work Front.

Democratic Iraqi People Party.

Democratic National Advancement Party.

Iraqi Pro-Democracy Party led by Blogger Mohammed Fadhil.

Dr. Abd Jasim Al-Sa’dee.

Sha’ban Uprising League.

Kurds Independents List.

Lord of The Martyrs Islamic Movement.

15th of Sha’ban Islamic Movement.

Hatem Abd Al-Imam Abdalla Al-Bijari.

God’s Revenge Islamic Organization.

Yazidi Movement For Refrom and Development.

Labor Movement For Kurdistan’s Independence.

Independents Assembly In Salah Al-Deen.

Kurdistani Popular Movement.

Democratic Movement of Kurdistan People.

Chaldean Democratic Union.

Islamic Democratic Union.

Kurdistani Democratic Labor Party.

Dr. Raja’ Habeeb Al-Khiza’ee

Al-Nishoor Movement.

Democratic Kurdistan Movement.

Abdalla Ali Hussein.

The Independent List.

Arabic Democratic Front.

Democratic Baith-Nahrain Party.

Baghdad Citizens Independent Assembly.

Kurdistani Communist Party.

Kurdistani Democratic Socialist Party.

Mohammed Muhsin Ali Al-Zubaidi.

National Assembly of Al-Samawa Residents.

Iraqi Council For Non-Governmental Humanitarian Organizations led by Jabbar Me’taff Hassoon.

Council of Kerbala Province Sheikhs and Nobles led by Yahya Khaleef Al-Ka’bi.

Iraqi Democratic Popular Assembly led by Khalaf Al-Munshidi.

Rajiha Ahmed Saleh Al-Baghdadi.

Mohammed Khathim Fayrouz Al-Hindawi.

Official Council of Al-Dewanya Tribes led by Sa’ran Hamod Al Hamod.

Iraqi National Unity Council led by Rabee’a Mohammed Habeeb.

Al-Phoratain Independent Front led by Shakir Abd Al-Ameer Al-Jibasi.

Abbas Nasir Hassani Al-Hasnawi.

Hussein Hashim Jabir Abbas Al-Janabi.

Salman Mekotir.

Islamic Unity Party In Iraq led by Mohammed Al-Mossawi Al-Qasimi.

New Iraq Advancement Movement led by Ahmed Mohammed Faisal.

Service Assembly led by Talib Kathim Eid.

Democratic National Union led by Ghafoor Tahir Sa’eed.

Democratic Brotherhood Union led by Shamoel Tito Al-Botani.

Democratic Iraqi Stream led by Aziz Al-Yasiri.

Kurdistani Democratic Party led by Mas’ood Mostafa Al-Barazani.

Iraqi Commission For Independent Civil Society Organizations led by Basil Abd Al-wahab Al-Azzawi.

Movement of Kurdistan Opressed and Farmers led by Bayber Kama LaSulaiman.

Hussein Lu’aibi Al-Musawi.

Abbas Ali Al-Mayahi.

Hatim Al-Mayahi.

Ja’far Tahir Al-Maryani.

Hashimi Iraqi Royal Assembly led by Salman Hussein Al-Ajeeli.

Independent Iraqi Organization led by Falah Hasan Al-Naqeeb.

Assembly For Al-Muthana led by Mohammed Al-Zeyadi.

Sa’ad Jabir Ali.

Engineer Wadi Mohammed Al-Khalifa.

Independent Intellectuals League.

Barakat Abd Al-Rahman Al-Wa’ali.

Ahmed Mulla Kareem Ali.

Sha’ban Uprising Rebels Movement - Headquarters in Iraq - led by Mufeed Al-mush’ashi.

Pharmacist Dr. Malik Jabir Al-Bdiri.

Mahdi Saleh Al-bwasari.

Ameen Hayder Al-Hassani.

Murtatha Abbud Al-Bazooni.

Democratic Islamic Party led by Dr. Abbas Al-Askari.

Mohammed Abid Awad Al-Dilemi.

Independent Iraqi Assembly led by Salah Hasan Al-Shammari.

Peace and Development Movement led by Judge Wa’el Abd Al-Lateef Hasan.

Tarik Jameel Mohammed.

Isma’eel Harbi Muz’el.

Islamic Work Organization in Iraq - Central Command - led by Alaa Hammod Al Ta’ma.

Iraqi Turkmen Brotherhood Party led by Waleed Mohammed Saleh.

Engineer Abd Al-Razzak Jawad Jabir.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/122481/1/.html some more links for you to look at

Pardon me, I defend what exactly, you shit-for-brains excuse for a maggot?

Given a choice, would you A) let a foreign army invade and let you have the freedom of a decision on what type of people and what type of government could rule you or

B) Let a murderous tyrant rob and rape your people for another ten years, whilst that foreign powers army blockades your borders and grinds down the standard of living an Iraqi has.

You seemed to have picked B.

They can vote for whoever they want, as long as it’s someone who we like

Why would president Bush like the fact that A Shia Alliance which has strong Islamist tendencies, be voted into office, secondly, why would he allow it to proceed this far if he was serious in curtailing its power.

Newsflash: some of the insurgents are the Iraqi people. Kinda throw a kink into your rhetoric, no?

I never denied there could be Iraqis fighting against the US, and I don’t doubt that they make up the majority, but it doesn’t propel them to a better position regarding my and your stances on this subject, I still think they should be defeated and killed, and to a lesser extent tried to be brought to a political solution. What I do predict though is that it will be the Northern Ireland of the Middle East for generations to come.

Oh, I’m sorry, your irony meter is turned off, isn’t it?

Oh please, you expect a war without civilian casulaties?

And yes, I know, the people cutting off heads.
Because that is much more horrible than homogenizing people with daisy cutters.

Or raping kids in Abu Graib.

Trying to equate one with the other won’t work, our intentions are at least half good, where as the Islamists and their cronies are downright pathalogical. Unless you have some apologist statements for them too?

How do I know?
Should I draw this for you with crayons?
They hate us, with a passion.
They do not hate the rest of the world with a passion.
Thus, the rest of the world would not be as hated.

I don’t deny some hate us, but I do deny them all hating us, we undoubtebly helped alot of Iraqis, especially the Shia and Kurds in removing a Sunni Baathist who they obviously didn’t want. So no, not all of them hate us, they’re pissed at us for not doing more.

Don’t forget Poland!

Or the UK! or Italy!

No, not never. There were calls for earlier direct-voting elections

till January 30th 2005!

Funny… I never realized that not invading a soverign nation which couldn’t possibly threaten us was appeasement.

Doesn’t matter that the government could threaten, but various groups within the Kingdom which are financed by them to stop them from subverting the government, are.

[Uzi]

@FinnAgain

From your mouth to God’s ear!
(on the impeachment bit, not losing the war)

If Bush is out, I don’t think that means we lose the war. Nor do I think it’d change our focus.

Think how long such a thing would take to happen. Think on what evidence would have to be presented and what affect it would have on the people of the US. Think on how that would polarize the country. Now tell me how this would help anything?

FinnAgain, I don’t think this is getting us anywhere. I don’t think that things like what happened in Abu Ghrai(sp?) really matter to the Iraqis themselves. SH did much worse and they weren’t blowing up his troops with car bombs. Again those people who hate you already do and don’t need a reason other than you are there to fight you. This is just a small log on the already very large bonfire. You think it does matter. I think you are losing the war because you aren’t willing to do what is necessary to win it, you think it is because we aren’t doing enough to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis (don’t ask me how you can do that with fighting ongoing). We both don’t think the US should be there in the first place. Okay, we are on the same side just from different perspectives.

[Liberal]

@FinnAgain

If they vote for a theocracy, how on earth can we claim it’s in the interests of freedom and democracy to squash their freely and democraticly elected theocratic government?

Tyrants who rationalize are hardly unprecedented. I imagine Rumsfeld will say something along these lines: We are going to keep holding these elections until the Iraqi people get to have their say, without interference from extremists and rebel insurgents. Bush will add: These elections were disingenious.

[Uzi]

/hijack. Has anyone ever posted something that covered an entire page? Is it possible, or is a page length determined by how many posts there are, but not the actual size of a post? I don’t think I’ve seen longer posts than we’ve had in this thread before, but then maybe that is because I am more involved than I normally am and haven’t noticed.

[Liberal]

A particular number of posts (depending on your personal settings) comprise a page. There is a limit to post length — 10K or so, I think.

[FinnAgain]

First, monkey-boy, if you’d seen the cite I posted, 92 percent of Iraqis see us as occupiers. Thus, that leaves only 8 percent to even be ‘on the fence’ now doesn’t it?

@Ryan_Liam

Happened before Iraq anyway. Remember Palestine? 9/11?

Nope monkey-boy. The ME wasn’t united against us in '48 or after 9/11.

@Ryan_Liam

Probably, but what would more than likely happen is that the attacks would intensify as one of the insurgents objective was to kill as many Soldiers as possible to make it unviable to stay, since that objective floundered, they’ve started to kill Iraqi government officials, the difference between an American and European army is that the US has the will to stay whilst the course is rough, where as the Europeans would just leave.

Ah, more untenable generalizations.
Cool.

@Ryan_Liam

So you did. Words fail me

You do realize this is a total non-sequitor and relates to absolutely nothing?
Yeesh, what am I saying. Of course you don’t realize.

@Ryan_Liam

Retarded, seriously, what you want is in comparison to what happened when the US supported the muhajadeen once the Russians left, and we all know what happened in Afghanistan right? And who had to come back and sort it all out? The Americans!?!

Yes, you might be seriously retarted, it is a possibility.
Is your brain short circuiting again?
Mujhadeen =//= UN peacekeepers.

@Ryan_Liam

So why should then the US give them commerical contracts when they didn’t do anything to secure the liberation of Iraq ‘smart’ one?

Because aside from giving billions in no-bid contracts to Bush’s cronies, we’ve done nothing to gain the vital global support we need, stupid one.

@Ryan_Liam

?? I told you to go to Chernkoff, but despite your attitude about blogs I’ll show you.

Wow, how thoroughly obnoxious. Was there any need to fill up the screen with text?
I’m not going to throw more cites at you, because, well, you’re stupid.
And evidently you’ve been ignoring all the Iraqi government officials who’ve been assasinated as of late.
Showing me that there are candidates is idiotic when they’re being murdered left and right.

@Ryan_Liam

The latest poll of 5,000 people** taken in and around Baghdad**,

Need I point out why this statistic is hopelessly useless?

@Ryan_Liam

Given a choice, would you A) let a foreign army invade and let you have the freedom of a decision on what type of people and what type of government could rule you or
B) Let a murderous tyrant rob and rape your people for another ten years, whilst that foreign powers army blockades your borders and grinds down the standard of living an Iraqi has.
You seemed to have picked B.

And you seem to be a blob of infectious human waste that’s found a keyboard.

Reality is not binary, Aristotle commited a fallacy by having the ‘excluded middle’.
You’re retreating into a tired line of bullshit that I’ve heard from the right in my own country, hearing it from some idiot brit kid doesn’t impress me much either. Virtually nobody who was opposed to the war also supported Sadaam. Idiot.

@Ryan_Liam

Why would president Bush like the fact that A Shia Alliance which has strong Islamist tendencies, be voted into office, secondly, why would he allow it to proceed this far if he was serious in curtailing its power.

Why he’d like it is because it would be the **freely and democratically chosen ** option.
And to why he hasn’t stopped it, because he’s not magic?
How on earth do you curtail a popular belief in a foreign country via the use of force?

@Ryan_Liam

I never denied there could be Iraqis fighting against the US, and I don’t doubt that they make up the majority, but it doesn’t propel them to a better position regarding my and your stances on this subject, I still think they should be defeated and killed, and to a lesser extent tried to be brought to a political solution. What I do predict though is that it will be the Northern Ireland of the Middle East for generations to come.

This is part of what makes you a mental defective.

If Iraqis are a large part of the uprising, then Iraqis are voicing their displeasure with the US being there, and thus you can’t kill Iraqis for Iraqis’ sake because they’re the ones who don’t want us there. It’s stupid, and makes no sense. Unless of course you mean to wipe out every Iraqi who doesn’t want us there and is willing to fight to get us to leave?

@Ryan_Liam

Oh please, you expect a war without civilian casulaties?

Um, no.
But if you’re going to excuse us, why not the insurgents?
That’s why I was talking about your irony meter.

@Ryan_Liam

Trying to equate one with the other won’t work, our intentions are at least half good, where as the Islamists and their cronies are downright pathalogical. Unless you have some apologist statements for them too?

Islamists? Is that some new wacked out way of saying “muslims”?
And please explain the half-good reasons for raping young boys. I am very curious.
Oh, and, I wasn’t ‘equating’ the two, simply pointing out that the occupation is barbaric.

@Ryan_Liam

I don’t deny some hate us, but I do deny them all hating us,

Ninety. Two. Percent.
Jackass.

@Ryan_Liam

we undoubtebly helped alot of Iraqis, especially the Shia and Kurds in removing a Sunni Baathist who they obviously didn’t want. So no, not all of them hate us, they’re pissed at us for not doing more.

Hey, whenever you wanna stop making shit up, reality called and pointed out that 92% of Iraqis viewed us as an occupying power.

@Ryan_Liam

till January 30th 2005!

Mother of mercy, you fucking idiot!
Is it too much to ask that you match words up with something resembling proper usage?

How does an with 'till January 30th ’ respond to " There were calls for earlier direct-voting elections"?
Gah!
To reiterate you schmuck, there were calls for direct voting elections months, and months, and months ago. Idiot.

@Ryan_Liam

Doesn’t matter that the government could threaten, but various groups within the Kingdom which are financed by them to stop them from subverting the government, are.

Monkey-boy, that is not coherent English text.

And you have yet to prove how not invading a soverign nation which didn’t threaten us would be seen as appeasement.

[FinnAgain]

@Uzi

Think how long such a thing would take to happen. Think on what evidence would have to be presented and what affect it would have on the people of the US. Think on how that would polarize the country. Now tell me how this would help anything?

Personally, I think the country is just about as polarized as it’s ever gonna get short of another civil war.

@Uzi

FinnAgain, I don’t think this is getting us anywhere. I don’t think that things like what happened in Abu Ghrai(sp?) really matter to the Iraqis themselves. SH did much worse and they weren’t blowing up his troops with car bombs.

Sadaam wasn’t a foreign, and christian, invader.

[QUOTE=Uzi]

Again those people who hate you already do and don’t need a reason other than you are there to fight you. This is just a small log on the already very large bonfire.

[quote]

Then why weren’t Iraqis attacking us before we invaded?

@Uzi

You think it does matter. I think you are losing the war because you aren’t willing to do what is necessary to win it, you think it is because we aren’t doing enough to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis (don’t ask me how you can do that with fighting ongoing).

Well, what exactly must we do to win it?
I don’t see torture helping…

@Uzi

We both don’t think the US should be there in the first place. Okay, we are on the same side just from different perspectives.

Quite possible.
Maybe we can work on winning this damn thing now…

[FinnAgain]

Damnit!
Should’ve previewed.

@Liberal

Tyrants who rationalize are hardly unprecedented. I imagine Rumsfeld will say something along these lines: We are going to keep holding these elections until the Iraqi people get to have their say, without interference from extremists and rebel insurgents. Bush will add: These elections were disingenious.

Sounds about right.

[Aldebaran]

@Uzi

The only reason we, as in westerners, are here at all is because the ‘natives’ can’t, or won’t, develop their own resources and have allowed us to do it for them. Get it?

Making resumé: You are there because you ca

Their choice. And those ‘natives’ of which you speak are my friends, but that doesn’t blind me to what their culture has done to them and continues to do to them.

Maybe the better question you should be asking is if I agree that the US should be in Iraq at all with its army? No it shouldn’t be. But if you go to war then go to war and quit whining about some eggs cracked making omlets. Yeah, sounds harsh but that is what war is, harsh. Be damned sure that what you are doing is correct from the get go before you go thrashing about in the desert.

Who is the they you speak of? The Iraqi people never owned Iraq, Saddam did. He owned a place called Iraq with a bunch of slaves and minions to do his bidding or to take the abuse he dished out as he saw fit. The US took it away from him. So, who owns it now? The former slaves or the invading army? Only people in democratic nations where people have a say in government can people ever say it is theirs, imho.
[/QUOTE]

[Aldebaran]

@Uzi

The only reason we, as in westerners, are here at all is because the ‘natives’ can’t, or won’t, develop their own resources and have allowed us to do it for them. Get it?

Making resumé: You are there because you can make more money there then at home.

Their choice.

Actually: Your choice to make money you can’t make at home, Mother Theresa.

And those ‘natives’ of which you speak are my friends, but that doesn’t blind me to what their culture has done to them and continues to do to them.

Translation: you look at them as Good Masters tend to look at their slaves: Friendly Patronizing First Class. They can’t help it they are inferior, it is how they are, how they are designed by origin and birth. You find yourself and your “culture” so utterly superior.
I call such delusional behaviour “post-colonial disease”.

Maybe the better question you should be asking is if I agree that the US should be in Iraq at all with its army? No it shouldn’t be. But if you go to war then go to war and quit whining about some eggs cracked making omlets.

Let me know how you feel when you and your family and friends are considered to provide for the reserve of eggs considered to be disposable/cracked.

Yeah, sounds harsh but that is what war is, harsh.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

Be damned sure that what you are doing is correct from the get go before you go thrashing about in the desert.

What exacly is “correct” in your eyes when it comes to invade sovereign nations, murdering thousands and thousands of the citizens?

Who is the they you speak of? The Iraqi people never owned Iraq, Saddam did. He owned a place called Iraq with a bunch of slaves and minions to do his bidding or to take the abuse he dished out as he saw fit.

Filthy patronizing capitalistic dog, you would not dare to let that pass your arrogant lips if you stood in front of me. The Iraqi woman who raised me since childhood was no slave of anyone. Her family living in Iraq was no slave of anyone. Now they are under occupation of imperialistic pigs who only have capitalist-geo-strategical interests in mind.

The US took it away from him. So, who owns it now? The former slaves or the invading army? Only people in democratic nations where people have a say in government can people ever say it is theirs, imho.

The relatives of my late nanny still owns everything their family owned since centuries. The USA can try to take it from them. I wish them luck in trying.
The USA Heros already killed the daughter of one of their friends in the process. Try to guess what that little girl’s father and many others in his situation and many many others who known people in such situation would like to do at any given occasion to the murderers?
Try to guess what many many Iraqis in such a situation are actually doing right now. The last I heard was that they succeeded in writing some victory on their CV. I also heard that people in Mosul, being in such situation as I describe and longing for revenging their dead and wounded and everything the USA has brought onto thme and their country, said they feel sorry. Not because apparently 18 US soldiers were killed (I don’t know the correct amount of casualties made, it was at the time what was circulating) They felt sorry because it were not tenfold that amount.

That is how “liberated” the people your filthy mind pictures as “slaves” feel and how much they love the new imperialist master.
Get it?

Alderan was refering to the ‘illiterate natives’ of where I work which is in Yemen.

Correction. I was with the right amount of sarcasm making allusion to former posts of yours on this message board where you described “the natives” as illiterate in your usual denegrating paternalistic way.
Your statements in this thread about “what their culture does to them” etc… only confirm your level of reasoning.

He was making a comment as if I was some missionary bringing enlightenment to the darkies as opposed to a guy who works with the Yemeni people and does his best to train them to a recognized international standard so that when the oil runs out (Yemen doesn’t have the reserves like Saudi, et al) they will have the best opportunity either help their own people, or help themselves if they want to emmigrate.

Ayyuha Mother Theresa! Tell me how much money I can contribute to your charity work!

But then Alderan is an idiot and I don’t expect much more than that from him.

Making no impression on a pig is nothing special to me. I would be worrried if it was otherwise.

The education levels in Yemen are very low and they don’t have the ability to develop their resources as quickly as they’d like.

Tell me: as “who” would like, exactly?

It doesn’t help that the collectivist culture and rampant corruption puts a huge roadblock in the way of this process

Ha.Ha. You once again prove how illiterate you are yourself. Your little provincial paternalistic shaped one-braincell-mind has no clue that in order to work in an other culture, you must first of all try to learn about the culture. While doing that, you shall learn and see how you can make people living that culture make that culture and themselves work for you.

You know, I had already a good picture of you from the first posts I came to read.
Yet the most convincing to have you categorized was this

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286519&highlight=Arabic

The Great English Teacher who can’t even realize that you can’t possibly learn a language when you are even too lazy to learn its alphabet.
You have even too much contempt for the language of the country you get your paycheck to learn the stupid easy alphabet.
You expect Yemen and the Yemenites to change their ways and culture because you choosed to work there. You even expect the language to come to you without you making any effort.

You are not even funny as a clown.

I’ve seen it all, the little minded idiots with Super Ego like you. Complaining because they can’t get things done like if they are at home. I’ve seen then come. And I have see them go. A non-stop influx of fortune seekers who want the money, but it must come without effort from their side to work in a country that is not theirs and to adapt themselves to that culture.
Some of them were payed by my relatives to serve as my teachers. You would not have lasted long in such a function. One wrong word aimed at the woman who even when she is dead now has my unconditional love and admiration, one single attempt of you to call her a slave, would have let you meet with the gutter where you obviously belong.

Get it?

Salaam. A
(I don’t even know if you understand this word, even when not written in the Far too Difficult Arabic Alphabet)

[Ryan_Liam]

First, monkey-boy, if you’d seen the cite I posted, 92 percent of Iraqis see us as occupiers. Thus, that leaves only 8 percent to even be ‘on the fence’ now doesn’t it?

Well, if we’re trading insults, monkey penis, it doesn’t matter if they see us as occupiers, I haven’t denied this fact either, its what we’re doing in trying to get the Iraqis self sustainable and sufficient, in a way which does not equate with the breakup of Iraq or its fall to the insurgents.

Nope monkey-boy. The ME wasn’t united against us in '48 or after 9/11.

But before 48’ the Middle East was pretty adamant in not wanting a Jewish state in Arab lands Monkey penis.

Ah, more untenable generalizations.

Yes, because I seem to remember Europe in the last twenty years having some balls and going into a campaign with all the vigour its forefathers had.

You do realize this is a total non-sequitor and relates to absolutely nothing?

I know, but I know you’ll waste time being ‘smart’ and all, in typing a reply in which you have to comment on how I didn’t notice.

Mujhadeen =//= UN peacekeepers.

and I keep saying, wouldn’t work. Was there peacekeepers after the Russians left Afghanistan? No because the situation was too dangerous, the same will undoubtebly apply to Iraq.

Because aside from giving billions in no-bid contracts to Bush’s cronies, we’ve done nothing to gain the vital global support we need, stupid one.

We have though. just not in Iraq. That I know is wrong and unacceptable. Monkey Penis.

Wow, how thoroughly obnoxious. Was there any need to fill up the screen with text?

Why don’t you at least try and look at those sites I’ve listed rather than disregard all of them because they’re ‘blogs’ even though these blogs are from people who are in the warzone you’re describing. Asshat.

And evidently you’ve been ignoring all the Iraqi government officials who’ve been assasinated as of late.

So this should stop them from reaching the goal of representative and democratic government? We should leave them to it as you proscibe?

Showing me that there are candidates is idiotic when they’re being murdered left and right.

So that immediately means we should quit? We should disregard their hopes of democracy and representative government, do you know thats playing into the insurgents hand completely?

Need I point out why this statistic is hopelessly useless?

Who cares, it was a poll conducted by a few Iraqis, hey if thats bad, you’ll love this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3631826.stm

You’re retreating into a tired line of bullshit that I’ve heard from the right in my own country, hearing it from some idiot brit kid doesn’t impress me much either. Virtually nobody who was opposed to the war also supported Sadaam. Idiot.

I know Monkey Penis, but the fact remains, you’d rather of seen Saddam the butcher in office that little bit longer, than free the people of Iraq from his clutches. Things maybe worse, alot worse, but the Iraqis now have the freedom to choose who they want to lead, rather than have it imposed on them.

And you have yet to prove how not invading a soverign nation which didn’t threaten us would be seen as appeasement.

Saudi Arabia, a country in which the Wests energy supplies are relied on, but this state in turn has encouraged a intolerant form of Islamic ideology which threatens that very energy supply.

[FinnAgain]

@Ryan_Liam

Well, if we’re trading insults, monkey penis, it doesn’t matter if they see us as occupiers, I haven’t denied this fact either

~gobsmacked~
Are you really that stupid? Honestly?
If someone thinks you’re an occupying force, they do not like you.
Good gods.

@Ryan_Liam

But before 48’ the Middle East was pretty adamant in not wanting a Jewish state in Arab lands

Good gods, how stupid are you???
Arabs not wanting a Jewish state in '48 =//= them hating the United States.
Do you have to work to be this ignorant, or does it come naturally?

@Ryan_Liam

Yes, because I seem to remember Europe in the last twenty years having some balls and going into a campaign with all the vigour its forefathers had.

Don’t even know your own country’s history, eh? Or are you going to dance around and say “it was twenty two years ago, so it doesn’t count?” Eh, monkey-boy?

I might also add, your forfathers fought against the Nazis you fucking ignorant trash. I’d also add that some of your ‘european forefathers’ were the Nazis, you walking reminder of why the Straight Dope is having so much trouble fighting ignorance.

@Ryan_Liam

I know, but I know you’ll waste time being ‘smart’ and all, in typing a reply in which you have to comment on how I didn’t notice.

So, you know that you can’t type using proper written English, and that’s somehow my fault?
Were you conceived from a weak load? Was your father jacking off and then your mom sat on it at the last moment?

@Ryan_Liam

and I keep saying, wouldn’t work. Was there peacekeepers after the Russians left Afghanistan? No because the situation was too dangerous, the same will undoubtebly apply to Iraq.

No… there weren’t peacekeepers because we didn’t want the UN involved. How fucking stupid are you??

@Ryan_Liam

We have though. just not in Iraq. That I know is wrong and unacceptable.

Hey, shit-for-brains, tell me how a) The US has won global agreement on any subject b) how that would fucking matter since we’re discussing Iraq[ and how virtually none of the world supports us there?

@Ryan_Liam

Why don’t you at least try and look at those sites I’ve listed rather than disregard all of them because they’re ‘blogs’ even though these blogs are from people who are in the warzone you’re describing.

Because, you stupid piece of medical waste, I’m not browsing through pages of someone’s online journal if you’re too damn lazy to cut and paste a specific cite to prove a point. Moreoever, you are only putting your ignorance and lazyness on display when you can’t even be bothered to come up with your own points, you need to quote someeone else’s essay.
And, you fucking tool, as I already said, data is not the plural of anecdote.
At best all you have to offer is anecdotal evidence.

@Ryan_Liam

So this should stop them from reaching the goal of representative and democratic government? We should leave them to it as you proscibe?

Good Gods! Seriously, are you honestly this stupid, or are you Engaging in this shit again?

Yes, if their elected officials keep getting blown up or shot they can’t run a government. Jesus, are you honestly this stupid, or is this an act?

@Ryan_Liam

So that immediately means we should quit? We should disregard their hopes of democracy and representative government, do you know thats playing into the insurgents hand completely?

Listen you empty-headed recipticle for tired ideas:
I never said we should quit despite your attempts to use that strawman, I’ve said that we need to get someone else in who can do the job.
And, yes! If conditions now make it virtually impossible to do the job of an elected official without getting made dead I’d think that was a serious problem.

@Ryan_Liam

Who cares, it was a poll conducted by a few Iraqis, hey if thats bad, you’ll love this.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Voices from Iraq: Women speak out

Who cares? Who cares if the sample size is too small to make a valid generalization for the rest of the country?
Jesus, don’t put your intellectual dishonesty on display shit-for-brains.
And you want to give me a cite that talks about the perspective of six Iraqi women? Six? Isn’t there a part of the feces sloshing around inside your cranium that realizes that if 500 people in Bagdad isn’t a good source, that six won’t be better?

@Ryan_Liam

, but the fact remains, you’d rather of seen Saddam the butcher in office that little bit longer, than free the people of Iraq from his clutches.

No, you stupid motherfucking piece of shit idiot monkey-fucking corpse-eating shit-drinking ignorant son of a whore!
Why don’t you let me tell you what I think, and you can go back to annoying grownups, eh?

@Ryan_Liam

Things maybe worse, alot worse, but the Iraqis now have the freedom to choose who they want to lead, rather than have it imposed on them.

“Even on moral grounds, the case for war was dubious: the war itself has killed over a thousand Americans and unknown thousands of Iraqis, and if the threat of civil war becomes reality, ordinary Iraqis could be even worse off than they were under Saddam Hussein,” it argues.

How does the freedom to choose mean jack shit if because of our poorly planned out actions their nation is plunged into anarchy?

@Ryan_Liam

Saudi Arabia, a country in which the Wests energy supplies are relied on

Learn to use the English language.
I’d also note that Saudi Arabia could, under your definiton, be construed as a threat.
But, idiot, that doesn’t get at why leaving Iraq alone would’ve been appeasement.
Do you really think other peoples minds are as mushy as yours, that they’ll forget the topic of discussion just because you crudely try to obfuscate and change the issue?

You’re a waste Ryan, you’re useless, you’re ignorant, and your mind is third rate.
And you’re a racist fuck and even when you whine about chaning your stripes, you’re still a racist fuck

So, yeah, I feel like pitting myself for responding to you. You’re useless, and I’ve spent valuable minutes of my life talking to someone who’s probably got an IQ around 90.

Seriously, are you doing this again to piss people off and get a rise out of them?
Bah, what does it matter.
I’m not going to be responding to you again in this thread, because you’re far too ignorant to come up with a cohesive argument, let alone debate skilfully.

[elucidator]

@Ryan_Liam

…I know Monkey Penis, but the fact remains, you’d rather of seen Saddam the butcher in office that little bit longer, than free the people of Iraq from his clutches. Things maybe worse, alot worse, but the Iraqis now have the freedom to choose who they want to lead, rather than have it imposed on them…

Ah, this old favorite! Couldn’t you work a woodsman into this fairy tale? Would be an improvement, over the fanciful notion that GeeDubya awoke one morning, tears streaming from his compassionate, conservative eyes, and resolved to free! FREE! the Iraqi people, at whatever cost, bear any burdern, the usual crap. Perhaps the Iraqi people, whatever the hell that abstraction may actually mean, feel more free now. They have a rather odd way of expressing their fulsome gratitude. Must be a cultural thing.

But we left Saddam the Unbearable in power for more than ten years after (wisely, IMhO) deciding not to take on the burden of rebuilding Hell as Switzerland. And then suddenly…our conscience could not bear another moment, our noble compulsion to self-sacrifice came to the fore. Sure. If you have grandchildren, tell this to them. Not us.

Leaving the realm of the solid fact, I indulge a bit of conjecture. What with the no-fly zones, and all, Saddam really only controlled that part of Iraq most sympathetic to his aims. I conjecture that if a free election might have been possible in the fragment of Iraq that he directly controlled, he might very well have won such an election. Given how much people admire and support firm, decisive leadership.

You may, if you wish, refer to me as “donkey dick”. I’m used to it.

[Ryan_Liam]

elucidator

Ah, this old favorite! Couldn’t you work a woodsman into this fairy tale? Would be an improvement, over the fanciful notion that GeeDubya awoke one morning, tears streaming from his compassionate, conservative eyes, and resolved to free! FREE! the Iraqi people, at whatever cost, bear any burdern, the usual crap. Perhaps the Iraqi people, whatever the hell that abstraction may actually mean, feel more free now. They have a rather odd way of expressing their fulsome gratitude. Must be a cultural thing.

Oh please I didn’t mean it that way, but to say things were better under a brutal dictator who would never of given the people their choice in what government and what life they wanted to lead, is very true.

Given how much people admire and support firm, decisive leadership.

I’ll accept you’re being sarcastic.

You may, if you wish, refer to me as “donkey dick”. I’m used to it.

No problem

FinnAgain

If someone thinks you’re an occupying force, they do not like you.

Yes, however, we’ve given them the choice to take whatever direction they want to go.

Don’t even know your own country’s history, eh? Or are you going to dance around and say “it was twenty two years ago, so it doesn’t count?” Eh, monkey-boy?

We’re the exception.

European support lacking

News

Arabs not wanting a Jewish state in '48 =//= them hating the United States.

I didn’t equatie it in being that, but the animosity in allowing to let the Jews create their own state was there, remember when all the Arab armies started attacking Israel?

No… there weren’t peacekeepers because we didn’t want the UN involved. How fucking stupid are you??

And how stupid is it to concieve that in Iraq they’d be welcomed with open arms? the fact that the UN headquarters were bombed killing its commissoner is something to take note of you fucking dipshit. (look at me! I’m rising to your bait :))

Hey, shit-for-brains, tell me how a) The US has won global agreement on any subject b) how that would fucking matter since we’re discussing Iraq[ and how virtually none of the world supports us there?

Fuck it, I don’t care is no one supports the US in Iraq, even though the invasion was wrong and the pretext completely stupid, what we’re doing now is right and I will never be shaken on it.

At best all you have to offer is anecdotal evidence

Even though you ‘tool’ as you say, I have provided cites where as there is information from media articles, and, accounts of life in Iraq from soldiers stationed there, if you don’t wanna read them then thats your business, but it just shows how long you will go to prove your stuid point.

Yes, if their elected officials keep getting blown up or shot they can’t run a government. Jesus, are you honestly this stupid, or is this an act?

Bollocks to that, we should help them until we should achieve their goal. How about the insurgent/terrorist fuckers aims in which they want to stir up ethnic tensions and create civil war? We should just leave them to it? I believe in the Iraqi people and their will to create the democracy they want with our help, and I hope we achieve it

How does the freedom to choose mean jack shit if because of our poorly planned out actions their nation is plunged into anarchy?

Strange, I heard similar connotations about Afghanistan.

You’re a waste Ryan, you’re useless, you’re ignorant, and your mind is third rate.

Don’t worry, I’ll find someone to put that dummy back in.

And you’re a racist fuck and even when you whine about chaning your stripes, you’re still a racist fuck

Yawn, you still going on about that shit, maybe just maybe, I’d like to see Iraq succeed against all the odds, and maybe just maybe, I’d like to see it as a model for other Islamic countries to follow. I don’t want to see it go down the road of Islamo facism just to prove some lefties.

So, yeah, I feel like pitting myself for responding to you. You’re useless, and I’ve spent valuable minutes of my life talking to someone who’s probably got an IQ around 90.

The thing is, no one cares what you think about me.

I’d also note that Saudi Arabia could, under your definiton, be construed as a threat.

I think the support for Islamo Facist groups is a threat, and our appeasement of the Saudi Government for all these years was wrong. In Iraq, albeit wrong we finally woke up to the fact we couldn’t maintain that kind of situation anymore, any yeah probably find a more stable route for oil supplies. However, I’ll always believe in the Iraqis who will eventually get their dream of Democracy with our help.

Aldebaran

Translation: you look at them as Good Masters tend to look at their slaves: Friendly Patronizing First Class. They can’t help it they are inferior, it is how they are, how they are designed by origin and birth. You find yourself and your “culture” so utterly superior.

Urgh Jesus H Christ, Aldebaran, is there something so inheirently wrong with everything Western that you must bitch about it? Is it somehow inconcievable that Westerners can actually do something out of the good of their heart? Quit bitching and get used to some unfair facts of life.

Geez I wonder who the racist fuck is here?

Filthy patronizing capitalistic dog, you would not dare to let that pass your arrogant lips if you stood in front of me. The Iraqi woman who raised me since childhood was no slave of anyone. Her family living in Iraq was no slave of anyone. Now they are under occupation of imperialistic pigs who only have capitalist-geo-strategical interests in mind.

Sunni Baathist are we? That post speaks volumes. Besides, no you weren’t slaves, the Shia were just that for you. Stick it up your ass Aldebaran, along with all your Saddam insurgent sympathies.

The relatives of my late nanny still owns everything their family owned since centuries. The USA can try to take it from them. I wish them luck in trying.

The USA Heros already killed the daughter of one of their friends in the process. Try to guess what that little girl’s father and many others in his situation and many many others who known people in such situation would like to do at any given occasion to the murderers?
Try to guess what many many Iraqis in such a situation are actually doing right now. The last I heard was that they succeeded in writing some victory on their CV. I also heard that people in Mosul, being in such situation as I describe and longing for revenging their dead and wounded and everything the USA has brought onto thme and their country, said they feel sorry. Not because apparently 18 US soldiers were killed (I don’t know the correct amount of casualties made, it was at the time what was circulating) They felt sorry because it were not tenfold that amount.

Yawn, same old rant, same old apologist. Damn I wish you’d sometimes put all your efforts into lambasting the insurgency, rather than being a tired old cliche. But then again one always hopes for that special something.