I don’t really like to get into poitics here, but this one has me steamed up a bit, so to the pit…
Rumsfeld claims the abuse of prisoners is un-american and is SHOCKED by it. Link.
Well, apparently, Rummy, it’s not un-american. Apparently, its right up our alley. Put a few Iraqi prisoners in a room with no windows. Put them under the control of a few people with little or no accountability and we pretty much turn right into the sick fuck we went in to replace.
And what really gets me is the bullshit “stunned” act pulled by Rummy and Bush.
Because – as with so many other things along the way – they’re either LYING or STUPID. We pretty much committed war crimes in Vietnam (My Lai massacre), the Korean war (No Gun Ri – is there still genuine doubt about the authenticity of it?), WWII (at least according to Robert McNamara who claims in “The Fog of War” that had we lost, we would have been convicted of war crimes for the indiscriminate fire-bombing of numerous Japanese cities, which he in part oversaw).
If Rummy and Bush really are shocked by how our GIs have acted under stress in a foreign, then they’re stupid because it sure seems that most of our conflicts have involved some sort of atrocities. Did anyone NOT think there would be some stupid bullshit pulled by the “boots on the ground” during this invasion?
And if they’re not shocked, then they’re liars. And they were liars to begin with when they acted like this was some sort of humanitarian mission that would be greeted with joy. Because you just don’t invade a foreign country without a sizable portion of the populace pissed off about your being there.
And the worse thing is, though My Lai remains as a stain on the US Military, clearly we didn’t learn from it, and I have ZERO expectations that we’ll learn anything from this.
Well, considering that we are “reprimanding” the soldiers responsible, no we will not learn anything about it, other than some people will defend anything, no matter how detestable.
I understand your frustration about Bush and Rumsfield hypocritically declaring prison abuse “un-American”. The most bodily harm claimed in Abu Ghraib abuses was “a rape with a broomstick”. Not so long ago Haitiian immigrant in NY was raped with a broomstick to death by NYPD. So such things certainly happen in US.
I don’t understand your exclusive concentration on US army and police abuses. Every army and police force in the world is abusive. We must be better? We are better. We abuse the least and our abusers are kept responsible the most.
Maybe I’m confused by your post, Trunk. It seems like you’re mad at Bush and Rumsfield for being “shocked” at the situation…? If this is the case: you’re kidding, right?
I agree that things like this have happened in the past, and will likely happen anytime a situation like this comes around, but why are you pointing a finger at Rummy?
"The seven officers and sergeants who received the administrative punishments weren’t accused of abuse. They were deemed responsible for failing to properly train, discipline and control the actions of the military police pulling guard duty in Abu Ghraib. The Pentagon didn’t disclose their names.
Six other Army Reserve military police soldiers face court-martial trials on charges that they abused and tortured Iraqi prisoners held in Abu Ghraib, where Saddam Hussein once kept, tortured and killed thousands of prisoners."
I agree that it was detestable. Let’s keep the facts straight.
Easy mistake to make – for some reason I kept getting Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima confused, too. Two unusual names beginning with A and having L-based 3-syllable last names? I dunno, but I had a hard time keeping them apart.
Despite claiming shock and horror, Bush apparently didn’t exactly rush out to read the official army report on the abuse. Something that was available for all Americans to read about as of last week was “still working up the chain of command” to him. He doesn’t really even seem aware of what the reporters are talking about, even though the report was completed in February. This is a serious, serious matter on which the President needed to appear informed about and on the ball. He needs to make a much stronger, bigger statement in order to help fight the bad PR in the Middle East, complete with specific promises and promises of systemic reform. But he instead appeared clueless and passively awaiting someone to come out with the book-on-tape version.
You know what I don’t get [SUB](well, besides the whole war in Iraq that is)[/SUB], is the compulsion to be photographed with the poor sods you’re torturing.
Seems fairly common but inordinately dumb to me.
You can bet that if** I’m** in charge of the torture chambers, it’ll be dim lights, closed doors and a strict no camera’s allowed policy all the way.
It is pretty obvious that we are dealing with a massive, if not systematic, breakdown of the command and control structure. The reason armies can get away with putting high-powered firearms in the hands of 19 year olds is that armies watch and supervise those 19 year olds. By the same token the immediate supervisors are watched and supervised by still other people. When it works right it works smoothly. Just as soon as the commanders let it be known that there will be no supervision, just as soon a people who are outside of the command structure get the authority to directly control low level soldiers, there is an escape from responsibility. Lack of supervision and lack of responsibility inevitably gives rise to irresponsible behavior and claims of ignorance. Soldiers act irresponsibly when their commanders let them act irresponsibly.
The real question is just how far up the ladder the failure to supervise goes. There was a report on all this back in February by a major general with an unpronounceable name. When general officers start doing investigations and filing 50 page plus reports and nobody pays attention something is seriously wrong. When a brigadier general in command of a prison says that parts of the prison where off limits to her even though her people worked there then something is wrong. (One thing I learned 40 years ago is that when my soldiers were doing something that someone did not want me to know about, I better damn well go find out what was going on.) When the Secretary of Defense and the President claim not to have been briefed on a report that is public knowledge then something is very seriously wrong. When the very people charged with knowing what is going on and supervising it and making sure that every one is singing from the same song book deliberately and wantonly abdicate responsibility then something is very seriously wrong. This was not a secret, people.
When there are things that you should know but don’t it may just be neglect. When there are things you should know and the means of knowledge are in you hands but you haven’t looked and are shocked and amazed that things are not as you had hoped then it is just reprehensible.
Fair enough, but explain to me (like I was a 6 year old) why in the hells the Iraqis (whose opinions you might or might not be worried about) should trust that they’ll be punished?
Turn them over to the Iraqis. Let them handle it and you might earn some trust.
What kind of bullshit is this? Every American is responsible for the acts of a couple of shitheads who can’t take orders? Of course not.
As for the OP, I don’t see why Rumsfeld or GWB would respond any other way. It’s just politics. Yes, I think both are evil fucks, but I don’t believe they’re sending troops to the Middle East expecting them to torture prisoners of war. Of COURSE they’ll react with outrage when torture practices are unearthed, if only because that’s expected of them.
And just because torture of POW’s happened in past wars (involving the US or not) doesn’t mean we’re supposed to act like it is somehow expected, and show no surprise or comdemnation when it occurs.
To hear the people involved tell it, they were following orders. They were under pressure from the military intelligence arm to make the prisoners uncomfortable. After they had started the really humiliating shit, they were encouraged even more, and told that the prisoners were finally starting to offer info… This takes it a step up from random acts of shitheads to ‘tactics’ or ‘strategy’, for which the blame is on those responsible for/supportive of the war. I personally hesitate to accept any kind of responsibility for it though. I live in America, but the hell if I identify with the way this country is headed. I have to little faith in human nature to think much good would have come of the venture.
As appalled as I am about the alleged abuse by US military I find I am even more terrified of some of the private security firms
At least with military members there is some system of punishment. In the case of these private security firms it seems that no one is sure if there is any juristiction under which they can be prosecuted. All the military is saying it can do is ask that these people be fired.
We went and dissasembled a country then turned it over to mercenaries. :eek:
That’s not even a good try at misdirection New Iskander.
The headline: "25 Prisoners Died While Held by U.S. Forces"
and the bolded text: “another prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad in November 2003 by a private contractor who worked as an interrogator for the CIA.”
give the lie to your false claim.