Punching is aggression. Certainly there are some hormone-ridden teenagers who whack each other around and call it “friendly,” but it’s more often a show of dominance. Kids who get “friendly” punches from the alpha males don’t consider it friendly–it’s putting you in your place. And you don’t ever punch someone who is above you in the hierarchy.
Allowing a student to punch a teacher dramatically undermines the teacher’s authority, and shouldn’t be permitted under any circumstances.
That’s completely irrelevant. My son has come home from school with a sore arm that didn’t show bruises (from a jerkwad like the OP is talking about). I’ve been knocked around by cows and horses, taking blows that were sore for days that didn’t show a visible bruise. But that doesn’t matter. This student struck the teacher. Expulsion strikes me as too much in this case, but hitting a teacher is grounds for immediate suspension and a chat with the police. Period.
There’s no lasting physical damage from insulting a teacher, or screaming at her, or breaking all of her pencils, or stealing her purse. There’s lasting damage to the teacher’s authority. And I’m not big on the whole touchy-feely “self-esteem” movement in this country, but sometimes there is something to it.
And there’s a problem with that? I just can’t understand, treis, how you can feel that it’s okay for a student to strike a teacher. In our school, a student would be immediately suspended for hitting another STUDENT! Physical violence is simply not tolerated.
A teacher would be instantly fired for striking a student. Career-ending move. And you thing the student would be damaged by a suspension or police record? Sorry. There’s simply no comparison between losing your career and carrying a police record until you turn 18.
Relevant. They might. Sometimes. Exclamation point.
But that’s a whole 'nother story and not pertinent to the OP. Anyhoo…
In this case, the kid was so far beyond the line it’s unbelievable in this day and age that he wasn’t escorted out of the school and in to a waiting squad car. He must’ve been one slick talker.
We can only hope that, whatever ‘correction’ the student receives, it fosters a better understanding for adherence to the rules rather than resentment and (even more) hostility.
Hey, you can’t reach some kids. If he does, indeed, have repeated disciplinary problems, then maybe a different kind of learning environment is warranted.
That was simply a hypothetical to respond to Marley23 and the facts should be taken as stipulated.
shrug, I am not too interested in arguing about it. 50 hours is a reasonable number, but I suspect its inflated.
You said:
Which I took to mean that they only consider if the person they hit can best them physically. If that is an incorrect interpetation I apologize.
There are a lot of jobs that I believe have benefits that outweigh the disadvantages. Doesn’t mean I think they are the greatest jobs in the world. For what its worth, I am still in college but my trade will probably be as an engineer. The degree will be for sure. If I were coming out with a liberal arts degree becoming a teacher would look like a pretty good option.
I think we might be talking passed each other here. Certainly the kid should be made aware that he crossed a line, and he should apologize for that, but thats not punishment to me. Thats simply what any decent human does. To me, you are punished for something you do wrong. Unknowingly crossing a line in a relationship once isn’t doing something wrong. It’s just one of those unfortunate aspects of being human, and there should be no punishment for that.
Its nothing that jumps off the page, but there are a lot of hidden benefits to that. The first are simply the health and other benefits that come along with the job. The second is that you earn tenure, effectively having a guaranteed job after 5 years or so. The third is that teachers have a, I believe, State guaranteed retirement fund. I believe, and I don’t claim to be an expert, that this retirement is very generous. Something like 60% of your final salary. The last is that you are guaranteed raises for the next 30+ years to a salary, depending on your district, of $100,000 or so. Those three things make the $10 per hour (even assuming the ridiculous hours) much more valuable than a generic $10 per hour job.
Fair enough, although you were still only counting school weeks. In my experience teachers work more weeks than this, in the extreme case I cited it’s about 51 weeks per year.
One is a professor. The other is (or was) a high school teacher. Offhand, I would estimate her hours to be around 55-60 per week. And she did have summers off.
But yeah, I found a website that surveyed teachers’ work hours (I probably can’t find it again), and the average seems to be about 45.
I think it largely depends on experience, class size, and subject. The high school teacher mentioned above taught Spanish, and so she had a lot of homework to read through every night. All of it was prose, so it was time-intensive.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t teachers now need a masters?
Also remember that there is more to teaching than just knowing how to speak Spanish or multiply fractions. A teach must also be a psychologist, nurse, mother, disciplinarian, drill seargent, and diplomat. All under the watch of litigeous parents, violent students, and shrinking budgets. Frankly, you couldn’t pay me enough.
I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me why knee-jerk reactions are necessary, or even appropiate.
Yeah, thats the point I am making. The fact that it was physical contact, assuming that there was no malicious intent, is irrelevent to me. The damage is mental and emotional, and thats no different from the damage from verbal abuse.
Where have I said that I found this kid’s behavior okay?
True, but primary or secondary school teachers that pick up a separate job in the summer (even if it’s summer school) also get paid a separate salary. I counted school weeks in determining per hour wage based on yearly salary because that’s when they are earning that yearly salary – during the school year (and, I’ll give you, the days leading up to it).
That seems right and not at all unreasonable
Not in the public school systems I am familiar with, and I doubt in any others - were that the case, you would really see a shortage of teachers. OTOH, an advanced degree will likely get you a pay raise
I think that there are trade offs, like with any job, and it certainly takes a certain type of person. You couldn’t pay me enough to be an accountant, but some people dig it.
I think that elementary teachers only need a bachelor’s, while I know my HS requires a Master’s. If you have a bachelor’s in anything in IL, you can be a substitute teacher-I was one for a short time. Subs are (were) paid approx. $11/hr. Sucky pay, but it worked with my kids’ schedules.
As a staff nurse, I am required to work either Christmas Eve or Day, same with New Year’s, 4th of July is alternated with Memorial Day etc.I don’t care how much classwork needs to be graded, you can’t tell me that having a week off in the midst of the holiday season isn’t a sweet deal.
Mother’s Day happens to fall on my regularly scheduled weekend, so I am never home for that. Not to play the pity violin here, but teachers in many ways have a nice gig. Sure they work hard, but so do most people. That does not excuse bad behavior on anyone’s part, of course.
I highly doubt that most elementary teachers work (either inside or outside of school) more than 40-45 hours per week, once they’ve become familiar with the curriculum and lesson plans. HS is another planet entirely–there are essays and papers to grade, math equations to check work on, lab books to check etc.
I still think I would have enjoyed it-and liked having summers off. Meh.
bottom line for me: expelling this kid does no good to the kid or anyone else. Something tells me the parents aren’t exactly involved in this kid’s life. That is where the changes really need to be made, but counselling and detention would at least drive the point home that hitting is NEVER appropriate. That’s all that needs to be taught here–it sucks that this kid hasn’t been taught or learned that lesson as of yet, perhaps now he will.
I know I’m coming in late to this thread, but I wanted to add my input as a former teacher and current prosecutor, a significant portion of my time as a prosecutor (and former defense attorney) deals with Juvenile cases. Although I’m not familiar with the DC system in particular, I have worked in systems in major metro areas.
Treis, let me just say (diplomatically), I think you are overstating what is likely to happen to this kid if charges are brought. Unless DC Juvie is significantly less busy than we are (which I highly doubt), the kid is likely to be charged by summons, not by arrest, particularly considering the federal Juvenile Justiice mandates. No arrest, no booking, no answering yes to questions about his arrest, etc. Additionally, his Juvie records are sealed and expungeable by law, meaning no revelations on jobs applications, scholarships, college admissions, etc. The result is most likely to be a juvenile case in which this student is placed on some form of unsupervised probation, ignored by the DC version of the Department of Family Services (which has bigger fish to fry), and eventually discharged as a matter of course. THe most likely learning experience he is likely to get is that the juvenile court is a paper tiger. After all, the adult equivalent would be a non-status misdemeanor - a non-domestic battery.
As to the expulsion, that is a bigger issue. I don’t know about DC, but in most jurisdictions, he wouldn’t be expelled, but he would be suspended for a time. No alternative school (which are often better than you or the media portrays) because an expulsion or suspension means no placement at any of the district’s schools. Instead, it is possible that his parents may have to find a temporary caregiver (if suspended) or a new school (public or private, if expelled). Further, even if he is expelled, it may likely only be for the academic year, which is about a month. I have fundamental objections to expelling or out-of-school suspensions as punishment, but it isn’t going to be the end of this kid’s world.
El Perro Fumando, no teacher should have to put up with it. Something like this, if it is swept under the rug, is likely to foster a belief in other kids that this behavior is acceptable. That is not acceptable, and may lead to further problems with this and other students.
Also, I wonder if there is more to this than meets the eye. What did the administrators hear from the kid. What did they hear from you? I know that sometimes I would send a student to the vice-principal, and the kid would minimize or fabricate the reason he was sent there. Did the principal hear about the incident from you or from the student?
Another possibility is that the kid has an IEP specifically addressing such behavior. If so, the school is required, by federal law, to go through certain steps before a “change in placement”, such as expulsion or suspension, can occur. Maybe the proposed meeting is an IEP meeting to start that step.
Either way, that kid should not have been sent back to, or allowed in, your room that day.
In most public schools, not to start. Bachelors (with teaching certification) is enough.
However, most schools also have requirements like “Masters within five years.” I’m not going to go into the hourly wage side argument, but will say that since this is a job requirement to part-time a Masters program in addition to all school activities (and some teachers just make that their summers), that’s just as much qualified to be called work as the classroom time, grading, planning, etc.
Update: long story, so I’ll sum up today in bullet points.
-Student was in school today. Got to my third period class where I sent him with his work down to the office to do it. The administrator at least agreed to that.
-Student might be suspended for 3 days. Don’t know yet.
-Police officer on site is encouraging that I file charges. Will be doing so tomorrow (since other things took up my planning period today) because. . . .
-Student in question was overheard in the office telling another student that “Next time, I’ll punch [Ms. Fumando] in the mouth. And you’re next Ms. Smith. . .” in the direction of his math teacher from last semester. (other teacher’s name changed.)
-Because of this most recent development, I am requesting that his schedule be changed for the remainder of the school year. I do not want him in my class if he makes verbal threats to harm me or his previous teacher.
Additionally, Only Mostly Dead was slightly misinformed. This is the third instance of a referral for some sort of “agressive physical contact” that I have written for the student while he was in my class. The first two acts were against students, and the third is the one being discussed at length.
I sent a firm e-mail to the AP last night for which I was promptly reprimanded (yelled at). She didn’t like that I insinuated she wasn’t doing her job properly. I didn’t like that I was punched in class and she didn’t handle it as carefully as she should have. Excuse: “I was busy” - then refer him to another administrator, we have four others. I’m sure one of them was at least slightly less busy than her. Meeting with the principal tomorrow - she’s more tough love than the AP. I gave the AP a day to rectify the situation and she still hasn’t.
I’m just tired that I have to fight so hard for something that (the majority of you) think is reasonable - swift and proper action from administration.
Update: long story, so I’ll sum up today in bullet points.
-Student was in school today. Got to my third period class where I sent him with his work down to the office to do it. The administrator at least agreed to that.
-Student might be suspended for 3 days. Don’t know yet.
-Police officer on site is encouraging that I file charges. Will be doing so tomorrow (since other things took up my planning period today) because. . . .
-Student in question was overheard in the office telling another student that “Next time, I’ll punch [Ms. Fumando] in the mouth. And you’re next Ms. Smith. . .” in the direction of his math teacher from last semester. (other teacher’s name changed.)
-Because of this most recent development, I am requesting that his schedule be changed for the remainder of the school year. I do not want him in my class if he makes verbal threats to harm me or his previous teacher.
Additionally, Only Mostly Dead was slightly misinformed. This is the third instance of a referral for some sort of “agressive physical contact” that I have written for the student while he was in my class. The first two acts were against students, and the third is the one being discussed at length.
I sent a firm e-mail to the AP last night for which I was promptly reprimanded (yelled at). She didn’t like that I insinuated she wasn’t doing her job properly. I didn’t like that I was punched in class and she didn’t handle it as carefully as she should have. Excuse: “I was busy running to and from meetings” - then refer him to another administrator, we have four others. I’m sure one of them was at least slightly less busy than her. Meeting with the principal tomorrow - she’s more tough love than the AP. I gave the AP a day to rectify the situation and she still hasn’t.
I’m just tired that I have to fight so hard for something that I (and the majority of you) think is reasonable - swift and proper action from administration. Suspension for a few days - definitely not allowed to re-enter any classrooms that day and definitely not allowed to come to mine without having first served some sort of consequence.
I wasn’t going for “they only consider” it, but it certainly is a portion of what they are considering. Hopefully, the consequences of such an action (i.e. punishment - whatever it is) will factor into their thinking.
Depends on the system. I probably work in a slightly higher-paying than the median district. (I have relatives & friends in other states who make more than I do.) I can tell you as a fact that there is no teacher making $100,000 on our staff. (Principals and Superintendants are another story.) I can also tell you , as a fact, that, in order to make our top teacher salary (under 80k), you have to have the equivalent of a PhD’s worth of post-grad work, including a master’s degree. With very few exceptions, a teacher must hold a masters (within 5 years of starting) to remain a teacher. After maxing out in experience (i.e. has taught for 11 years), a teacher’s only way to get a raise is to continue their education (as mentioned, up to PhD equivalent in coursework), and / or hope that the union negotiates for a “cost of living” increase. This does not always happen.
Yes, the retirement funds are a much better pension than social security. I do not know how they compare to the average retirement package / etc. of the average joe (w/ a masters).
To whole bean, in every state that I am aware of, you need a masters to remain in teaching. You can begin with a bachelor’s, but within a certain length of time (5 years for my state), you must complete your masters. Yes, there is a raise associated with completing a masters; but the same thing happened to my brother working for <a major telecommunications company>.
I’ve read through this entire thread and I just wanted to add:
High school students to stupid things. I coach high school debate and the complete lack of common sense and even tact from the kids never ceases to amaze me. Does that mean they are bad kids? Hell no. It means they are still KIDS and just aren’t fully aware how to function in most (ie: all basic) social situations.
In this particular situation, I’ll agree that the kid was out of line. In fact, the kid deserves to be punished (apologize to the teacher, suspension, do some work for the teacher to help her out, etc.), but expulsion? Come on.
I would fully support expulsion if the kid had actually ATTACKED the OP, but I’m not getting that at all. Hell, she isn’t even bruised. I’m sure if a 15 year old boy wanted to do some damage to her, he could have. Just from that, I’d say that it wasn’t a “malicious attack”-- just some stupidity from a teenager who doesn’t quite get how to handle himself.
And for the person who will surely reply, “By 15 I knew better” : So did I- but you’d be amazed by just how out of it most 15 year olds are. Like I said, I regularly find myself telling the debate kids (arguably, some of the brightest kids around), “Dude. No. Bad. Seriously. No. Why the hell would you think it’s a good idea to pour water into the lamp/ cuss in front of your judge/ tell your coach you plan on sneaking out and drinking?” (These are just some of the wonderful examples from this past weekend).
I had my first (almost) double-post! hooray! (the second is slightly different from the first)
Anyway,
The kid did minimize what happened - “I tapped her and she blew up in my face”, after earlier saying “I didn’t hit her that hard.” Let’s look at that closely - the second one is an admission that he hit me. Case closed.
The AP saw my written referral, the student then told what happened, then I went down and gave my verbal account.
And, no, the student has no IEP and no behavioral plan (called different things everywhere).
Oh, and thank you for offering the insight of another actual teacher.
Yeah, it was a bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point. All too often people toss around punishments but don’t consider the actual effects of that punishment.
I’d just like to quibble with this though. Sealed or not, there is almost always a question on an application asking about criminal history. For example warning pdfVirginia Tech (pg 23) and UVA both ask about criminal and disciplinary history. I was incorrect to say charged with a crime though, both ask about convictions. Sure the records are sealed, but lying on an application is grounds for denying the application, or dismisal after enrollment. Its similar for employment applications.
I thought it sounded like an AP just ‘not paying attention’.
Mom’s a teacher, and I grew up pulling sub TA duty or computer class duty on my vacations.
Folks, there’s little I can say here, except that even if you feel charges are too much, the punishment the AP assigned was far too little for the offense, if it hurt her or no. It’s a matter of discipline.
(just kidding)