You mean like commit a crime? Check the crime stats for AZ. Many of them are committed by illegal immigrants. Theft, assault, rape, murder are just some. Anyone who believes that they wont vote illegally must be sniffing airplane glue.
" Hey, I just raped that girl and killed her father. But dont vote, you might get deported…"
context of rebuttal not directed at Bricker, but the concept he quoted
If that happened, I’d favor further changes to reverse the “virtually impossible” barrier.
I’d say I’d want to find out how to make it easier for the former group and I don’t give a fuck about the latter.
The latter group’s opinion isn’t worth collecting because their ability to sort through a simple process of getting some form of ID or getting off their ass to do the necessary legwork means that mental laziness will probably will be reflected in their voting pattern.
Hmmm, the latter electorate are generating the votes that the Democrats are worried about losing? What sort of platform do you have that appeals to these sorts of people when they do decide to vote?
One that considers certain rights unalienable.
Okay.
So now we know that around 12% of the legal voting populace doesn’t have voter ID. We know that there is absolutely no evidence for voter fraud, with all investigations turning up numbers in the dozens of real cases nationwide, maybe a handful per state. We know that it is entirely possible that some people really will have trouble getting ID.
How do you rationalize putting the voter ID laws first, and the “make sure everyone gets voter ID” laws second?
You know, some people care about more than partisan politics. Just sayin’.
That’s nice. See any such efforts being made by the party pressing this emergency action? Any recognition whatsoever that such a problem needs to be addressed? Any of us here could come up with ideas to erase such difficulties. Can you point to any such efforts?
You insist that we must, simply must! respond to the threat of voter fraud that may not presently exist, but might at some future date. Apparently, this threat looms both large and close, these things must be done before the next election, there is no time for a thoughtful and careful process, emergency, emergency, arrooooga!
Despite massive efforts, no reliable evidence of voter fraud currently exists. But you demand immediate and urgent action. Further, you insist that such hampering of voter’s rights is justifiable, due to the emergency of a voter fraud that, so far as you know, doesn’t actually exist. No doubt you will insist on some sort of proof, yes? Will you be applying the same sort of daunting level of proof you apply to “voter fraud”? Or will we be required to come up with something a bit more tangible than a leap of faith?
Your wording is, as always, telling. “If that happened”? Implying some action to be taken if the next election shows precisely the problems we outline here? After the fact, then? After the next election, if it proves to be the case that many Democrat voters were discouraged from voting, then you will support “further changes”?
Well, why not now? Why not the same sort of pre-emptive action that you insist must be taken to prevent voter fraud be taken to prevent voter discouragement? Why must we wait for the Republicans to reap their sordid harvest, and then trust them to take effective action to disempower themselves? (See that word, “sordid”? It means “not good”…)
I don’t see any such action. On the contrary, as noted above, in Texas and Florida they have gone the extra mile, they seek to make further voter registration more difficult, and potentially criminal. They seek hindrances on black voters that have nothing whatever to do with voter fraud, unless voter fraud is more likely on Sunday.
But we are to be assured that if things are as we say they are, all will be fixed after the next election. Perhaps. We’ll have to see, the Republicans have a lot of agenda to shove up our…to enact. And a mandate! Oh, yes, we will hear a lot about how the people have spoken, we win, you lose, neener neener.
If there is any honesty to this effort, why not now? Or why not take our time, carefully sort this out, do some outreach, make the effort. Oh, wait, I forgot. Emergency. Urgent and immediate action desperately needed, right now, at once, to combat a problem that may not even exist. But might exist, at some point in the future!
Are there any unicorns in this story? I like unicorns in my fairy tales. Just no kissing. Don’t much like kissing books…
I find it hilarious that the leftists will jump all around themselves to ‘prove’ something unprovable.
The OP for instance has this whole ‘you’re lying’ thing down pat.
You refuse to believe that the DMV is ever, ever, EVER available for the poor working man.
Others like Boblibdem, Lobohan, and ElvisLives are all just bat shit crazy but they routinely get a pass from the majority of the board.
As to the actual issue, it’s amazing to me that the defense of the status quo is simply, ‘since we don’t have a check in place for voter fraud, there is no way it happens!!!’ ‘Where is the evidence??’
luci, i am actually enamored with (although lately he has lost some of the ‘rhetorical flourish’ that Bricker attributed to him
I think I get a pass because I generally deal with facts and reality.
Any examples of seeming bat-shit insanity that you want explained to you, just let me know. <3
Hey stupid, just go ask people who are recorded as having voted if they actually voted.
When they say no, you have a red flag for an instance of voter fraud.
Why is that so “unprovable”? It’s about as straightforward as you can get.
Not really, no. But that’s because I don’t agree that it’s virtually impossible for 5% of the electorate to vote under the schemes of even the most exacting state photo ID law.
We also know that in states without voter ID laws, it’s virtually impossible to find evidence of certain types of voter fraud.
I don’t really care about the numbers of people who don’t have state-issued photo IDs – I care about the numbers of people for whom it is virtually impossible to get state-issued photo IDs. Is that number 5%?
How about the instances of non-citizens voting?
Wait, what? You don’t see such actions because you don’t agree? You would see such actions if you did agree? Huh?
Oh, so the bar is “virtually impossible”? So a poll tax of a dollar is okay, right? Since it’s not virtually impossible to get a dollar for even very poor people, right?
Jesus-fuck, you’re amazing when operating in defense of your partisan allies.
In any case, get people universal IDs and then require them to vote. Only a completely un-American asshole would disenfranchise millions of voters to keep hundreds from voting fraudulently.
Is the Bricker cure for a hangnail amputation of the limb?
Slick wording, Counselor! Yes, we do know that. The same way we know that it hasn’t been done, because the Republicans have been trying to sell us this crap for years. Enormous effort has been expended to find any voter fraud worthy of attention.
Is the level of non-existent voter fraud more prevalent in states with voter ID laws? Is it like twice as much, zero times two?
You don’t want to know his cure for gonorrhea.
What about it?
A person is indicated as having voted. You ask them if they voted. They say no. You have an unaccounted for vote.
You can check their citizenship status as well (and any other criteria you like). If they say yes, they voted, but they are not actually an eligible voter, you have a fraudulent vote.
Boom. Do this for a representative sample and you have an estimate of the amount of the total population of fraudulent votes. So far, nobody has any evidence of significant voter fraud, despite how simple it would be to estimate.
ETA: Please do elaborate on the impossible cases. I’d love to hear more about them.
By the way, I’d love to hear some estimates of the costs of implementing voter IDs from the proponents. Bricker has assured us that it would not be that costly.
Just cruising around the web, I’ve seen reports of various apparent validity of about $12 million for Indiana to implement their system, NC of about $25.2M over the first four years, MO about $16.9M, and for the composite of the 35 states that have advanced this idea, an estimate in total of between 276 and 828 million dollars to implement Voter ID systems.
Again, I’m all for stimulus spending, but I don’t know that this is the most effective type of spending to stimulate the economy or not. It’s creating jobs by expanding the size of government, of course.
So, a problem that doesn’t exist may be addressed by spending somewhere between one quarter and three quarters of a billion dollars and increasing the number of government workers.
Bull. The point (as has been made repeatedly by myself and other people) is not “oh, people have to go to the DMV between 9 and 5 on a weekday, why, that’s IMPOSSIBLE, you are making it IMPOSSIBLE for some number of liberals to vote”. It’s that it makes it HARDER for people to vote, and disproportionately so for people who tend to vote more liberally. And when it gets harder for people to do things, fewer people will do those things. To quote myself, since no one bothered to respond to me 25 posts ago:
What, exactly, are we trying to prove that is unprovable? That many people have trouble at the DMV? That getting voter ID, even “free” voter ID, can be extremely costly to poorer citizens?
It doesn’t have to never be available. It just has to be, say, 30 miles away and/or excessively overcrowded. How close is your closest DMV? What percentage of people do you think live within walking distance of one?
Lol. Yeah, that’s a great idea, let’s assume (after dozens of investigations, mind you) that there’s no actual way to investigate voter fraud, a felony.
Wrong, as already pointed out.
Well, 11-12% of the populace doesn’t have photo ID. How many of them do you think don’t have it because it is a real problem for them to acquire it?
Better question. What number is inexcusable for you? 5%? Is that not okay? What about 1%? 0.1%?
How the heck did they make it past the registration booth? O.o
Does it have to be virtually impossible, though? At what point does it become a hindrance to democracy?