I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1)

[quote=“Bricker, post:7840, topic:624943”]

You said “it’s not a crime. That’s why I didn’t report it.” This despite your phrasing it in a way that made it sound like at least malfeasance, if not actual criminality. You provided no evidence it was not a crime, nor explanation for your reasoning. You merely expected people to take you at your word–even though in this thread you’ve admitted to trolling. This isn’t fighting ignorance.

But that’s not important. The key point is that you’re missing the forest for the trees. If I had to summarize elucidator’s fundamental argument in one sentence, I would not summarize it as “CASA commited a crime.” I would summarize it as, “if Bricker had seen what he claimed to have seen, he would have reported it.” Nitpicking whether or not you witnessed a crime is missing the point of that argument–and I suspect, intentionally so. The alleged incident would have been the lead-up to potential crime; it would probably violated various codes governing non-profit status; and even if completely legal, the press would have had a field day on the subject. Focusing on whether or not their action was literally felonious is a dodging elucidator’s question about your action–and dodging that question leads me to tentatively conclude that elucidator is right in his overarching claim, regardless of how off-base he is on the definition of “conspiracy.”

OK, let’s explore that.

Why, and to whom, might I have reported something like that if it isn’t a crime?

It wasn’t recorded. I’d have no way of proving it happened. And since it wasn’t a crime, “reporting” it seems an unclear concept.

I don’t know of any “codes” it violated either.

In short: why and how, specifically, do you think (or does he think) that I would have reported it?

This is what you’re hanging your hat on? **Bricker’s **statement that “you loved it”? And since you didn’t love it, you are calling him a liar? Is that what I should conclude from this example? That’s pretty weak shit dude. It appears to me that he was mocking you.

I’m sorry I stepped away for those five minutes, but I had to go to the bathroom, okay?

  1. call the electoral committee; let them know you overheard a specific and targeted threat to certain polls. Under the current political environment, you would have had no trouble at least getting listened to (Whether action would have been taken is another matter).

  2. Call the republican party of your local district.

  3. Call the press

  4. Return to the next meeting with a tape recorder

  5. Call the IRS with questions about CASA’s non-profit status.

That’s in 30 seconds of brainstorming.

I’m not saying you should have done one or all of them. I haven’t really thought them through. But it strains my imagination that someone as stridently in favor of Voter ID and as stridently opposed to voter fraud as yourself, didn’t even spend the same 30 seconds I did running through a list like this one.

Also, I don’t know case-law on this: can inciting someone to a crime be grounds for an investigation or search warrant, even if the speech is not grounds for prosecution? You could have reported this to the police as evidence of a crime; it seems extremely unlikely that a group advocating felonies on a massive scale would be completely free from other irregularities, some of which might be criminal.

He asserted in plain language that I supported the Mass. legislature doing that, in order to attack my contention that I would dislike it if Dems were using voter ID to cleave off GOP votes.

He even tried to support his position by posting that my lack of posting against what the Mass. legislature did was evidence I supported it. If you think that’s not a lie, then I guess we have differing standards for honestly.

It’s not favourable to Bricker if it was mockery, either. He told his “joke”, nobody laughed, then he told it again. Same thing with saying variations on “you only believe that because you’re a liberal!” I get that to* him*, calling someone a “liberal” is a mix of deadly insult and full-on mockery (so much so I wonder if he instinctively flinches a little when he says it, in expectation that someone will strike him in anger) but the reactions I’ve seen range from “your definition of* liberal* is cartoonish” to “what are you talking about?”, more bemusement than outrage or indignation, yet he persists because his arsenal and his wit are limited and he lacks the mental flexibility to adapt accordingly.

I figure he’ll call someone a “liberal” in what is meant to be a self-evidently derisive way at least once per page as long as this thread lasts, and on occasion in future threads as well.

I think from this point I’ll keep a running tally, as a minor intellectual exercise. Anyone is invited to chip in, citing post numbers where applicable.

But it wasn’t a “specific and targeted threat.” It was a general statement about how to register and vote regardless of your citizenship. No specific election, candidate, or time was discussed.

2 and 3 – no evidence to provide them.

4: that wasn’t an option. The gathering was not a regularly scheduled meeting; not a seminar on how to cheat elections.

5: nothing that was said has the slightest bearing on 501(c)(3) status.

I did, and I concluded there was no real opportunity to do anything.

In Maryland, there would be no real interest from a political standpoint for this investigation. And no: probable cause means probable cause for a crime. When I discussed the lack of a technical crime, you criticized me for being so literal. Now you’re asking about a search warrant. Would that be a metaphorical search warrant, or does the lack of an actual crime have some relevance again?

But you didn’t SAY that. Instead, you sneer at us, apparently for not being wise enough to read your mind.

Now, I can’t read your mind. I don’t know whether you argued the way you did was because you didn’t care to understand elucidator’s question, or because you didn’t care enough to understand his argument, or because hadn’t actually thought of it and are just saying so now. But I can read your posts. What I see is someone who focuses on details while failing to address the overarching point, over and over again–and who then lectures us good-for-nothing liberals on the proper ways to fight ignorance.

Actually taking material steps to plan for a crime is criminal, regardless of whether it’s not imminent. And calling for a crime, while not criminal itself, seems to me like it could constitute probable cause that they are also taking material steps towards the crime. For example, imagine a conservative zealot who publishes a screed arguing that it is the responsibility of all good white citizens to burn down government buildings on the anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombings. That’s April–clearly, the threat is not imminent and so the speech is protected by Brandenburg. However, if he has stockpiled so much as a lighter in preparation to burn a building down, he is guilty of an inchoate crime. Would his published incitement therefore constitute grounds for a search warrant? Honest question–I don’t know the answer to this.

Yes, he said, “you love it”. Twice. This is what you are hanging your hat on? It’s pretty weak. It’s not about standards of honesty - it’s about use of rhetoric. Consider the following:

“You’re a dickface!”
“I don’t have a dick for a face!”
“You do. You’re a dickface”
“Liar! I can’t believe you’re lying about me having a dick face. I don’t have a dickface so you are lying you dirty liar!”

You can call that a lie I suppose, but it’s not. Saying that you must love when X happens is of the same vein.

It’s not about favorable or not favorable. It’s about accuracy of assessment. To construe that as a lie is not reasonable. Of course no one laughed - he was mocking all of you. I personally think the Andy Kaufman-esque schtick is not very productive myself. It is mockery and satire though.

You’re simply being stupid. As I said above, he specifically made the claim to combat another claim I made. He was using it as evidence that a “liberal” must necessarily be as scummy as he is.

It’s not even close to mockery. Mockery is calling you a servile little twat that grouses around Bricker’s hindquarters looking for an expelled corn nibblet or tuft of grass to feast on. Mockery is not saying you and two friends repeatedly raped a retarded girl behind the band room in high school. <– Not Mockery

That’s an assertion of fact. You dickface. :smiley:

I didn’t say what kind of underwear I had on that day, either. Why did I leave that detail out?

For the same reason I did’t say that I considered all those options. It wasn’t relevant, and frankly still isn’t. What, in your view, makes it relevant?

(To head off another gambol through the daisies: a relevant fact is one that tends to establish the truth of the ultimate issues in debate.)

Absolutely untrue.

Or maybe not. Maybe I am mistaken.

What, in your opinion, is “the overarching point?”

No. That would have similar chilling effect on speech.

I have some glancing experience with CASA as well. The foundation I worked for was active in housing issues, with a focus on Native Americans but also immigration issues. Rather like ACORN, which we also funded. (Giving away dead rich guy’s money - oh,my, what fun! Giving it away to causes they would have HATED! Even better!)

Like ACORN, they were do-gooders, so earnest they made my teeth hurt, so sincere they made me want to drink. A level of involvement that made me a bit ashamed, I made a comfortable living giving away money, they took that money and Did Good. Like ham and eggs, the chicken is involved, the pig is committed.

Mostly housing issues, some community organizing, especially among immigrants. A bit of voter registration. Which made them enemies. What!? you say, how can something so inherently good as voter registration drives make one any enemies? Well, it makes you enemies among the sort of people who are not thrilled with recruiting more voters. Starts with “R”. “R”, me hearties, “R”! “R”!

Not enemies who will slip cyanide into your organic green tea, or cut the brake lines on your fifteen year old Volvo. But still, people who would be more pleased if you simply ceased to exist. Enemies who would seize an opportunity to do you dirt. Like, for instance, if they could prove, or even suggest, or even insinuate…that you had some designs for voter fraud.

Which they knew. Hurt their feelings a bit, to have enemies who object to such worthy pursuits as community organization. (Note: this was long before the murder of ACORN.) But they knew that they were waltzing blindfolded in a mine field, one wrong step, and goodbye CASA.

If for no other reason than funding. Charitable foundations are wussies, they watch their step very, very carefully. One word, one hint of anything remotely illegal or other than kosher, and the checks stop coming, goodbye to the luxuries of Goodwill suits and Motel 6.

Promote voter fraud amongst illegal aliens? Not a fucking chance. No fucking way, Jose. Of course, I could be wrong, it happened once in '68, when I thought I had made a mistake. But I very much doubt it. No. Just no.

As to what would motivate a lawyer who’s politics are just to the left of Calvin Coolidge to attend their meetings? Haven’t a clue, not making any suggestions, here. Perhaps an insinuation, one that can be dropped into the discourse like a gumball into a quiche, with a semantic trap door available to bolt into if challenged? But that would be wrong.

Bricker wouldn’t have had to report to authorities, a word dropped into the ears of CASA governing body would have swiftly resulted in stern words and fond farewells. A word to us, their funders, would have assholes puckering in dismay, pens poised hesitantly over checks that may not be signed. Did I mention that foundations are total wussies?

And whatever were you doing there, Counselor? Someone who is markedly unsympathetic to leftish populism of even the mildest stripe? And not once, but several times? A youthful indiscretion, perhaps, a halting misstep away from the path of political error? I make no suggestions, mind, or at least none that I cannot explain away with excruciatingly precise semantic distinctions.

Just, you know, asking questions.

That’s a reasonable question, actually.

And I can’t really answer it in detail. In general, the answer is: I was there to provide some assistance to an extended family member.

A seemingly related story with a Democrat as the baddie… Nancy Pelosi refuses to let Rep. Tammy Duckworth vote by proxy in the house leadership elections. What excuse did Tammy Duckworth have? Was she just lazy? Well… she’s a double-amputee war veteran who happened to be 8 months pregnant.

Just to forestall any Bricker-esque claims of hypocrisy, this was probably the wrong decision on Nancy Pelosi’s part, but it’s not even in the same universe as voter ID laws:
(1) It’s not changing a policy, just refusing to make an exception (the stories I have read have not made clear how often if ever exceptions have been made in the past)
(2) Unless there is a significant portion of the house Dems who are 8-month-pregnant-double-amputee-war-veterans, and they are generally demographically in the group who oppose Nancy Pelosi, this is not setting up systemic barriers, it’s a one time thing

God what a whiner you’ve become. Whine whine whine. Whiney whiney whiney.

Consider your Bricker Due Diligence done. Good job!

This comment acknowledges the truth of my observation. Thanks.