I hope this is the right place for this, as I am not normally a Pit Person…
As it happens, I just found a new job and my wife is actively looking. We were and are both employed, so this was not an urgent need, just each looking to move on for our own reasons. We’re both in good fields where earning potential is good, and we’re both at manager to director levels. So life’s not too bad.
BUT… I’m making a switch after about 10 years with one company, and she’s at about 7 years. What we’re seeing is that most of these companies insist you fill out a full application just to be considered for a position. It used to be that one would go through the discussion and interview process, and only be asked to apply formally once an offer was forthcoming.
I take issue with the amount of time that I have to put in for a position they may not even consider me for, and the fact that they are demanding a pretty sizable chunk of information including references, job and salary history, sometime SSN, just a lot of stuff that’s really only their business if and when they become (or genuinely wish to become) my employer.
I don’t think it’s right, and it’s a lot of information that most of these companies don’t even hold themselves. Most of them (including the company I am joining which is in the top 25 largest in the world) use 3rd party services.
“It used to be that one would go through the discussion and interview process, and only be asked to apply formally once an offer was forthcoming.”
In what industry or universe?
Sorry, but I’m not getting the logic (also don’t know what kind of informal employment search situation you’ve encountered in the past that you’re used to not filling out an employment application until someone’s ready to hire you). You want the prospective employer to waste time interviewing you and what not, but don’t want to have to fill out what should be a relatively short application until they decide to hire you?
You’re free to refuse to offer/provide certain information, and they’re free to decide how important it is. If you don’t have ready access in a document containing information about your job history that you can make reference to in an application and attach to it, that’s arguably your fault.
I disagree that your job history and such is not only their business or relevant *if they decide to hire *you. Why should they waste time asking you X questions about your job when they can use that information to help decide whether to bother interviewing?
If you’re going to pit something, pit the fact that they have you submit a resume, ostensibly with 90% of that information already covered, and then ask you again to write all that shit down on a piece of paper using a pen, and then MAYBE they will keep you informed about how the process is going.
Well, in mine. They send you a email or you send them one to see if you are interested. Then you send a Resume (that of course gives them your job history). Then a informal phone interview. Then the application. Because in my industry that come with a credit and background check, and those arent cheap.
Then the real interview, then a 2nd interview, maybe a 3rd. Somewhere along there they do the checks.
But yes, the application comes well before any offer. Generally once you are in the running, after they weed out the “not acceptables”.
crazyjoe- I agree.
But the lunacy doesnt stop there. Once you are in the control-phreak hands of those Masters of mickey mouse- HR, they can do some really weird shit.
Like- a follow up email? Most say yes. But some say if you do you’re “pushy” and OUT!
Or, when you come to the interview, you should bring a few paper copies of the resume. What kind of paper? Well, some say “Use the cheap copy paper or you will be seen as superficial and OUT!” Other say “Use the best bond, or you’re not really trying- and OUT!”
I’ve never seen that. Ever. They want to have an idea who you are before even considering whether to give you an interview. Also, it gives them something to check to see if you are truthful in your answers and representations.
If you want their job, you play by their rules. Surely you wouldn’t do it any differently if you were hiring for your company.
You know, filling out an online application is sort of reasonable. You don’t have to come to the office, fill out an application with a ball point pen, and hand them the paper copy.
But for fuck’s sake, if your online application process can’t strip all that shit out of my resume, then fuck you. I need to spend half an hour filling in required fields for shit that’s obvious? And for a job I’ve only got a 1 in 100 shot at anyway? It’s ridiculous.
It is ridiculous, in 2014, to need to spend an hour filling out an online form, when all that information is present on my FUCKING RESUME. I’ll paste a .txt version of my resume into your resume field, and that shit should be hoovered up and put wherever you want. And the random required fields for completely useless information? Fuck you. Oh, you want the exact DAY I started and ended each job I’ve had for the past 15 years, and this is a required field?
An online application process that takes an hour is a literal “fuck you” to job applicants. Oh, you’re trying to weed out people who are just spamming their resume to every job offer on every job website? Fuck you. I’ve never actually got a job from filling out an online application. Yes, I’ll still apply to online jobs, because I need money to live, but the hour-long online form is pointless and degrading.
My experiences have been even less formal than that, for the most part. Software engineer, Seattle area. Most of the places I’ve worked or interviewed, the process goes like this:
An in-house recruiter finds my website / github / linkedin / whatever account, or is given my name by a former boss or coworker, and initiates a dialogue.
If my experience seems like a good fit and I indicate interest in the position, we begin the interview process, sometimes with an informal meeting over coffee or lunch first.
I go through a round of technical interviews, usually just a few hours on one or maybe two different days.
If they like me, they extend an offer, either immediately or within a couple of days. If I accept it, only then does the paperwork start – tax forms, insurance and benefits, etc.
Sometimes it’s even quicker than that. At one place, an employee I knew recommended me, they brought me in for an interview a couple days later, and after two hours with their CTO he had me signing an offer.
Only a couple of very large eastside companies (whom I shall not name except to say that one starts with an ‘M’ and rhymes with “Nicrosoft” and the other starts with an ‘N’ and rhymes with “Mintendo”) ever had me fill out any paperwork before interviewing me. At the former, it was just a brief candidate interest form; at the latter they did in fact have the whole stupid “import your resume and then fill out all the fields manually” site, which at the time struck me as very backwards – I ended up rejecting their offer anyway.
I pitted this a few weeks ago, but it’s totally worth of a resurrection. I’m still looking and need to keel track of ten to twelve different sign now for each company, each with a different user name pass word convention and further re fill out every single field. I applied for a job inline, with the exact same title as I currently have…exact. And I was rejected for not meeting the criteria for further review. Every task mentioned in the job description was in my resume, almost verbatim. Yet, nonsense. This is another example of corporate America going cheap by depending on technology to do jobs humans used to do.
It’d be great to avoid this process, but every single financial organization utilizes some form of Taleo crap.
Having been through precisely this procedure too many times in recent years, I agree. Especially when:
–The Application can’t simply be cut-and-pasted in, but requires you to use their bizarre online software, which is filled with idiosyncrasies
— their application software is incompatible with my browser, but compatible enough so it kinda sorta works. Badly
–Even if I filled out an application last year, they don’t save it, so I have to go through the whole process AGAIN
–They want to know EVERY school, I attended back to high school, what my GPA was, and when I graduated. And not only every company I worked for in the past N years, but also my, supervisor’s name, his e-mail and telephone number, and my exact dates of getting hired and leaving. And starting and ending salaries. And why I left. Bonus points if this has to be done using their whacko software.
And this is how it’s been for all my jobs, pharmaceuticals, over the last 20 years. I have worked for huge companies and small (as in, from 8 to 80,000 employees)
I just have a feeling that these early and invasive applications are really about data collection. Consider that a job may have hundreds of applicants, all of whom have entered a lot of personal information, and most of whom will never even be considered.
This job in particular wanted details about my references and SSN, neither of which I think they need until we’re getting close to an offer.
I don’t think they should be collecting this sort of information until at least one round of interviewing.
And to those who point out that I have to play by their rules, well of course that’s true. I didn’t say I wouldn’t put the application in (and the fact that I have received an offer should indicate that); this is a pitting of something I don’t like. I don’t like the way the asymmetric relationship is used.
It would be safer, easier, and even cheaper if a resume were considered sufficient to get through a phone screen (establish parameters like compensation levels and confirm non-loonieness of applicant) and initial interview. That should allow one to whittle down to 2-5 candidates, at which time you can start with the paperwork.
Yeah, some of that is pretty odd. The trauma of my GPA means I honestly don’t remember it, and so I never know what to put there. Often you can leave it blank, but if it insists I will usually put a nonsensical number so that I can just say “oops” later. Interestingly, being in a scientific field, nobody ever seems to care what my GPA was.
Well, I have a proven track record in a small, insular, pharmaceutical backwater. People who hire me already know me, as there are probably just a couple hundred worldwide in my area, and probably less than 10 with my job title.
It’s a blessing and a curse. If an opportunity arises, I can usually grab it. Opportunities don’t arise very often.
That’s actually part of the reason for this move. I am joining a Deathstar-sized company so that I can try and spread my wings a bit.
Most states operate under “at will” employment laws, so unless you have a contract that states otherwise, you can be fired for any reason, or no reason at all.
