I pit the statement from the US Embassy in Cairo

[Jackmannii]

@Whack-a-Mole

Free speech is all well and good but if you spew hateful shit be aware there are consequences.

Hmmm…so, should these consequences include getting arrested for bigoted religious mockery?

Here’s a religion professor at the University of Pennsylvania who thinks so. Note that she considers herself a righteous defender of free speech, because after all she’s a tenured professor, which appears to mean “My free speech rights are inviolate, but yours aren’t if you piss me off.”

I think she’s a stupid dipshit for saying this stuff, but I don’t think she should be arrested - just mocked and embarassed.

[Kimstu]

@Jackmannii

Hmmm…so, should these consequences include getting arrested for bigoted religious mockery?

No. I think we’re all agreed on that.

@Jackmannii

Here’s a religion professor at the University of Pennsylvania who thinks so. Note that she considers herself a righteous defender of free speech, because after all she’s a tenured professor, which appears to mean “My free speech rights are inviolate, but yours aren’t if you piss me off.”

I think she’s a stupid dipshit for saying this stuff, but I don’t think she should be arrested - just mocked and embarassed.

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything she said about the film, but you are quite right that her stupid dipshit comments about “when will Bacile be arrested” and “Bacile should be in jail” and “there should be consequences for putting American lives at risk” deserve a sound mocking.

You can criticize stupid dickish religious bigotry without making an ass of yourself by demanding criminal penalties for non-criminal acts.

[Gary_Kumquat]

@JohnT

True, but OPEC != “Muslim States”… at least as long as Ecuador and Venezuela (both very Catholic) remain in the cartel.

Please note this was in response to Hyde’s comment that “We barely get any of our oil from OPEC these days” There’s two problems with that:

1. As noted above, you do
2. As you have noted, there’s a number of non Muslim states in OPEC, and a number of Muslim states that are outside of OPEC.

But whichever way he wants to slice it, then a trade embargo with secular Muslim states is going to be a massive problem for crude imports.

[Jackmannii]

@Kimstu

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything she said about the film

Actually, since her issue with the newspaper editorial has to do with First Amendment rights (also the subject of this thread), feelings about the truthfulness and wisdom of the movie’s message are of limited relevance.

[Marley23]

We’ll see if Mitt Romney finds anything to bitch about in statements like this.

The White House says the U.S. deplores the content of an amateur film that denigrates Islam, but America’s free speech rights allow such films to air.

White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters Thursday that the Obama administration also condemns the violence in several Islamic countries the film has reportedly triggered. He says the attacks on U.S. facilities in Egypt, Libya and Yemen are totally unjustified and should be squelched by local governments.

[Kimstu]

@Jackmannii

Actually, since her issue with the newspaper editorial has to do with First Amendment rights (also the subject of this thread), feelings about the truthfulness and wisdom of the movie’s message are of limited relevance.

Actually, they’re extremely relevant. It’s precisely “feelings about the truthfulness and wisdom of the message” of a particular item of speech that tend to cloud people’s judgement about whether and how that speech should be protected.

That’s why the most convincing defenses of the right to free speech come from people who personally hate the specific expression of it they happen to be defending. And that’s one of the reasons that the US Embassy in Cairo, and later the official White House response, made such a point of condemning the content of the “Muhammad movie” even as they upheld the right of its author to make it.

[John_Bredin]

@Kimstu

That’s why the most convincing defenses of the right to free speech come from people who personally hate the specific expression of it they happen to be defending. And that’s one of the reasons that the US Embassy in Cairo, and later the official White House response, made such a point of condemning the content of the “Muhammad movie” even as they upheld the right of its author to make it.

Yes, which has more impact: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” or “I agree with everything you’re saying, so I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”?

[newcomer]

I wonder how is the news of the “movie” and na organised attack on US Embassy connected.

It sounds all pretty much setup; the attack was planned long before and the “movie” is just a simple case of misdirection.

[RedFury]

@Kimstu

No. I think we’re all agreed on that.

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything she said about the film, but you are quite right that her stupid dipshit comments about “when will Bacile be arrested” and “Bacile should be in jail” and “there should be consequences for putting American lives at risk” deserve a sound mocking.

You can criticize stupid dickish religious bigotry without making an ass of yourself by demanding criminal penalties for non-criminal acts.

Question, as I honestly don’t know the answer: I watched the film, such as it is, and even being an atheist found it repugnant to the nth degree. When does “free speech” cross the line into “hate speech” and what are the legal consequences if any?

[Kimstu]

@newcomer

I wonder how is the news of the “movie” and na organised attack on US Embassy connected.

It sounds all pretty much setup; the attack was planned long before and the “movie” is just a simple case of misdirection.

Yeah, kwimby thinks so too. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the both of you were absolutely right about that.

[RedFury]

@newcomer

I wonder how is the news of the “movie” and na organised attack on US Embassy connected.

It sounds all pretty much setup; the attack was planned long before and the “movie” is just a simple case of misdirection.

I am ready to concede as much in the Benghazi attack, and said so yesterday in the GD threat on this topic, I also think the situation in Yemen is likely part of a coordinated AQ move, but I am not so sure it applies to the situation in Cairo…which may turn out to be the worse one after all.

[Marley23]

I think the public found out about the movie/trailer/whatever it is when the Egyptian media did a story about it.

[Kimstu]

@RedFury

Question, as I honestly don’t know the answer: I watched the film, such as it is, and even being an atheist found it repugnant to the nth degree. When does “free speech” cross the line into “hate speech” and what are the legal consequences if any?

IANA civil liberties L (or any other kind of L), but it looks as though the legal status of the concept of “hate speech” varies considerably depending upon the jurisdiction.

There are, I am proud to say, no legal consequences for hate speech in the US:

In the United States, hate speech is protected as a civil right (aside from usual exceptions to free speech, such as defamation, incitement to riot, and fighting words). Laws prohibiting hate speech are unconstitutional in the United States […]

Even in the US, many non-state entities (colleges, for example) are constitutionally allowed to identify and prohibit in their activities certain types of expression as “hate speech”. But nix nix nix on actually making it illegal, and good for us, sez I.

However, the fact that hate speech is not and cannot be illegal in the US makes it all the more important as a civic responsibility for us non-haters to blow a good solid raspberry at it when it rears its ugly head.

[Kobal2]

@Marley23

We’ll see if Mitt Romney finds anything to bitch about in statements like this.

Of course he (or large swathes of his party) will. It’s a nuanced statement attributing proportional blame to both factions and appealing to/implicitly calling for calmer emotions and reasoned behaviour across borders (geographical and religio-political alike).
WHAT SIDE IS THAT FUCKING KENYAN ASSHOLE REALLY ON ?!!! PEOPLE ARE DEAD !!!1

[Hyperelastic]

I opened this thread expecting to see post after post of pudding-brained liberal defenses of this appalling statement but I must say the thread has been a pleasant surprise.

Come the debates Romney is going to tee this one up and drive it straight down the fairway. Obama had better book a moving van for mid-January, just in case.

[Lobohan]

Jesus, these chuckle-fuckers aren’t even funny anymore.

[RedFury]

Thanks, Kimstu. But now you’ve given much food for thought. I self-identify (and live my life) as a progressive, but I am not so sure there shouldn’t be some constraints to freedom of speech once it devolves in hate speech. Clearly there are any number of people that can’t handle the responsibility that comes with said right. And no, I rather think “blowing raspberries” is quite enough.

I mean if I accost a gay person and yell out to him at the top of my lungs: “You fuckin’ faggot, burn in hell!”…he’s supposed to blow me a raspberry?

[Marley23]

@Hyperelastic

Come the debates Romney is going to tee this one up and drive it straight down the fairway.

Who wants to tell Hyperelastic?

[RedFury]

@Marley23

I think the public found out about the movie/trailer/whatever it is when the Egyptian media did a story about it.

Right. But what I am saying is that I have yet to find any other plausible reason for the demos there besides the movie, while the attack in Benghazi was clearly a well-planed jihadist operation.

[Kobal2]

@RedFury

Thanks, Kimstu. But now you’ve given much food for thought. I self-identify (and live my life) as a progressive, but I am not so sure there shouldn’t be some constraints to freedom of speech once it devolves in hate speech. Clearly there are any number of people that can’t handle the responsibility that comes with said right. And no, I rather think “blowing raspberries” is quite enough.

I mean if I accost a gay person and yell out to him at the top of my lungs: “You fuckin’ faggot, burn in hell!”…he’s supposed to blow me a raspberry?

Same here - the opinions voiced in this thread (and others across the web), along with my feelings on both the abstract principles involved and practical, real world examples have droven me into quite the cognitive dissonance.
I might start a thread in the coming days on the subject if I can articulate my conflicting thoughts on the matter, if someone red and furious (or possibly furious in a red kind of way) doesn’t beat me to the punch