I Pitt "Piss Obama"

Judging a work solely and entirely based on its name is different from asking if it insults somebody. If somebody finds the title insulting, they’re still insulted, even if the rest of the work is about how great they are.

Really. Let go of this one. Lots of people are insulted by “Piss Christ” because of the name. They’re allowed to be, and would still allowed to be if the content of the work was a Norman Rockwell painting of mostly white Protestants with just enough minorities to make everyone happy without scaring the whites, praying in a bright church on Easter morning.

How did Serrano manage to get god into the plastic?

Well, since you bring up flag defacement, here’s my friend and I (I wish) burning the American flag on stage. Don’t watch it. Is it insulting ? Watch it. How about now ?

It doesn’t ? I’m sorry, I just don’t… what ?! What kind of wilfully obtuse crap is this ?

They’re absolutely allowed to be. That doesn’t mean they’re not self-evidently beings idiots to be.

Use your words. What don’t you get?

Black magic?

:stuck_out_tongue:

The notion, which you apparently support, that the content of a message is irrelevant when determining whether that message is offensive or not. It’s so absurd to me, it might as well have been cooked up by André Breton.

I have said no such thing.

What I said in the post you were responding to was that the intent of the message is mostly irrelevant as to whether it’s offensive. This is especially true when it’s such an obviously ham fisted delivery as with the example of Piss Christ.

It doesn’t mean that they are, either. The title of a work is part of the work.

Going back to the original claim, “Piss Christ is not intended as an insult to Christ or Christianity,” Serrano has also claimed a photo of his that depicts a shackled naked woman with blood on her breasts next to a cardinal (Catholic, not the bird) is not lurid. He’s put on a show that was nothing but photos of feces (his own, and animals).

He’s a shock artist. He knows what he’s doing and feigns naive surprise that anybody could interpret a photo of a crucifix in urine as insulting to Christians.

I simply don’t believe him.

Oh, bullshit. He never said it’s irrelevant. He’s saying the title can be offensive all by itself.

A is offensive.
B’s offensivity is unknown.

Is the union of A and B offensive?

Yes.

What if B capitalizes on A being offensive to make a further point ? What if, for B to exist and work and make the sense the artist wants it to make, A has to be (temporarily) offensive ? I mean for Christ’s sake (Piss or not :slight_smile: ), a work is properly judged as a whole or not at all. It doesn’t really get more basic than this.
It’s like saying it’d be perfectly valid and cogent to say “I hate the Gettysburg Address. I never heard or read it, but Gettysburg sucks !”. Wouldn’t that sentence and sentiment strike you as a bit… special ?

In the realm of pure debate, yes.

Now I’m having a hard time teasing out* Piss Christ* from an abstract work with an offensive title, without knowing anything about the work.

I guess I feel confident that Serrano named it Piss Christ intending to offend people (no matter what he might say), whereas the title of the Gettysburg Address is not meant to offend.

Now I’m losing all perspective. I need to take a break.

But it’s not just the name. It’s the content as well. People know that it’s a jar or urine with an image of Christ inside. That’s offensive to them. They don’t need to see it to know that. The title is a big part of the problem, but it’s not the whole issue.

That’s why my analogy about wiping your ass with the flag works. That action is insulting to American’s, regardless of the lyrics of the hypothetical song.

I’m still finding it tough to believe that you really don’t get this.

Don’t tell me what I do and don’t find insulting.

Well, moot or not, I’d still like to hear your answer to the question.

Anyway, from the rest of this post, it seems I have failed to make my position clear, so let me see if I can rectify that.

I understand perfectly well why many Christians were offended by this picture: because they were told to be offended by it.

Certainly, it didn’t take much convincing - it’s a representation of their God, covered in urine. The obvious and easiest interpretation is that the artist is trying to insult their god. The problem is, that interpretation is fatally flawed. It doesn’t stand up to analysis, because (among other reasons) the image itself actually looks quite reverent. Serrano is a visual artist - his primary message is going to be delivered visually, and the visual here is quite lovely. If he wanted to deliver a message that was disrespectful, he probably would have gone with something like this. But he didn’t. While he may have used profane materials, the product appears quite reverent.

This creates an interesting contrast. Urine is generally regarded as unclean, but it can be used to produce something that’s quite beautiful. And that’s a central part of Christian theology, isn’t it? Christ was God cloaked in the profane material of our fallen world, so that he could offer us a message of spiritual salvation. In this interpretation, the urine is representational of the physical world as a whole, which is still unable to conceal the glory of Christ.

Now, as to the question of whether Serrano intended this image to be insulting: As a general rule, I don’t like to speculate about the intentions of artists. I prefer to let the work speak for itself. In this case, though, I don’t think Serrano intended the picture to be insulting at all. I think he was well aware of the *potential *for insult, and I think a big part of the painting relies on that potential. Serrano was certainly well aware of the values most people attach to the two subjects of this photograph, and how most people would interpret their interplay. I think he not only anticipated that, but incorporated and subverted it. Instead of the piss recontextualizing the crucifix as something being defiled, the crucifix recontextualizes the piss as something beautiful and holy.

At the same time, Serrano was probably also aware that most people wouldn’t be interested (or able) in doing that level of analysis on his picture. But then, Serrano also never expected most people to ever see the damn thing. Which brings us back to what I said up top about Christians being insulted by this thing because they were told to be. Serrano was working with some volatile subject matter, in a way that could easily be misread as insulting. But he was presenting it in a venue where he had a reasonable expectation that most people seeing it would be receptive to the idea that understanding a work of art can sometimes require one to reexamine or abandon their immediate assumptions; that they would be people who, at least intuitively, understand the concepts of contrast and recontextualization, and are amenable to those concepts being applied to controversial subjects. In short, he made a picture that was intended to hang in modern art galleries, where it would be viewed by fans of modern art. If he was trying to insult people, he was showing his pictures to the wrong crowds. The only reason he became a national figure is because a couple of politicians picked his painting out as an example of Evil Liberal Elites trying to destroy Our Christian Nation. And people got outraged, because rather than look at the picture and think about it for themselves for five minutes, they just went with whatever Jesse Helms told them about it.

Which I find mildly contemptible.

Two bits says it wasn’t even pee. Health regulations, you know. Most likely stale, watered-down, weak beer. Coors Jesus. Now there’s some blasphemy!

Let me get this straight: The hypothetical of someone wiping their ass with the American flag isn’t insulting to Americans?

Really?

Not to this American. I don’t speak for all of us, though.

You say this, but then you go on to say this…

You are going deep into the artists thoughts and motives. You are assuming a lot. Who knows what he thought? Do you have cites to back up any of these claims? Is he a friend of yours? How do you know him this well to make all these assumptions?

He took a picture of a religious figure submerged in urine and titled it as such. It’s insulting to the people of that religion. Full stop.

Can you name any action that you would interpret as being insulting to Americans?

I mean, if wiping your ass with the flag doesn’t raise to that level, what would?