What, the babies, too?
German infants were put in the factories almost immediately. Give me a bit to find my cite.
Holy crap, I’m old. Thanks so much, Dan - as if the UK election hadn’t depressed me enough today.
That’s pretty much true any time two or more of us are together and you’re among us. So relax; it hasn’t stopped you so far. 
I’m reminded of a post of mine from a few years back, when one of our resident wingnuts accused me of blaming America just because. The larger point is that while America has usually been far from its ideals, I think the myth of America’s goodness is a useful one, because some of us who buy into the myth and then find that America doesn’t live up to it, will respond by insisting that America become the good nation it’s supposed to be.
That insistence may at times sound overly critical of America, but IMHO the problem is when America fails to live up to its ideals, not when it’s criticized for that failure.
Footnote: I got the Nicaragua date wrong; it was 1990, not 1987.
Because the moral effect on the country as a whole is the topic of this thread, perhaps? As in “I remember when America was good?”
They most certainly did. “Precision bombing” of purely military targets was tried and judged ineffective. Thus, the switch to using incindiaries to deliberately burn out whole cities, if possible.
If the torture by this guard was in line with gov’t policy, it seems odd that the guard was court-martialled and thrown in jail for it.
Longing for The Good Olde Days, eh? How very conservative of you.
Heh, that makes no sense as an argument; prior to WW2, Americans were horrified by deliberate attacks on civilians, and were united in opposition to same. See, for example, the reaction of Americans to the “Rape of Nanking”, to Japanese bombing of Chinese cities, to the bombing of Spanish cities such as Guernica in the Spanish Civil War … moreover, the “whole world” (as in the League of Nations) felt the same. The “historical standards”, right up to actual US involvement, were that such things were not acceptable. They certainly were not acceptable to Americans.
If what you are saying is that “we were now at war, and so excusable” … well, presumably Bush & Co. would make exactly the same excuse.
Malthus, what are you searching for exactly? You seem to be looking for some objectively justifiable reason for America’s action.
The only truth here is: we are good because we are we, they are bad because they are they.
“Remember the Maine!”
I don’t think that is true. When we went into Iraq ,the civilians had hope that the values we pretend to have ,would be held. I think most of the world was pleased we at least claimed to have higher values. We said the right things.
We did plenty wrong . Now we try to find a justification for doing torture . It requires people like Rover to make it work. People who will find a way to defend the reprehensible, justify the unthinkable and blithely accept the lowering of values.
We know full well we committed atrocities. But like Mai Lai we we did punish a few perpetrators. We fried a few guards for zealously stepping over the imaginary line of prisoner mistreatment in Iraq. That is something.
Bush was happy to justify torture. He tried to find a way to redefine torture so he could do it. Most of us know better and are a little ashamed of our actions in Gitmo and Iraq. Some .like Rover ,are still doing the dance. Like porn, we know it when we see it. But if you can define it away, it didn’t happen. It did .
And so has every other nation/tribe/interest group who has ever engaged in warfare. Like Sherman said: “War is hell”.
Nor was the Germans doing the same to Coventry, first. Dresden was retaliation for Coventry.
It’s amazing how people defending America can actually use “everybody does it” as an excuse and expect to be taken seriously.
And the “everyone is a monster, don’t bother to feel any sympathy” argument falls flat even on its own terms since the people who claim that suddenly forget it when we get attacked. WE get attacked, and all of a sudden it’s a big deal; if the people making such excuses really meant it then they would have reacted to 9-11 with indifference.
I see. IOKIADI.* That makes no sense at all - it’s just brute tribalism. I prefer a “by their works shall ye know them” approach, personally.
*It’s OK if America does it.
Err, I seriously doubt it.
What a weird standard. I guess Saddam’s rape rooms where, as the name implies, there were very carefully planned rapes, weren’t torture.
Torture is both an action (there are certainly unambiguous things 99.9% of us would agree are torture) and a legal concept. So is murder. If you saw me shoot someone in front of you, am I not a murderer until a judge declares me so?
All of this “it’s not torture if no one was convicted! Or we can find other words to describe it!” stuff is the most morally reprehensible, and intellectually weak line of bullshit ever. I actually expect more from you - you should be less of a weasel. If you support torture, then just come out and say it, don’t hide behind cute euphemisms and technicalities.
Incidentally, I do think the US has tried to do well by the world for most of its history. I think this “all countries are the same” stuff is bullshit. The US is not morally equivelant to North Korea. I mean - really, if I asked you who were the good guys during the Cold War, even though you could point to specific distasteful or wrong actions, would you honestly not clearly understand that it was the west? The fact that this torture thing is a fiasco and huge hubbub, where in other parts of the world it’s routine and unremarkable, shows that there are different standards at work here, that the US does try and mostly succeeds at being the good guy historically, and it’s just that much more noticible when we’re the bad guy.
No, what doesn’t make any sense is searching and stretching and philosophizing to try and show how it’s objectively good if we do it and objectively bad if they do it. Just accept that we are we and they are they and that’s how it is.
So?
That’s an excellent example. On those facts alone, it is impossible to determine whether or not your actions constitute “murder.”