But not in the case of these words.
No, that’s not true. It may be true soon as common use overtakes the current rules, but if you try to say that on an English test, you’ll flunk. No proscriptive dictionary will say that either, though descriptive ones may at this point.
And another example: invite. It’s a verb, not a noun, though it is quickly becoming a noun. The correct noun is “invitation.”
40 buck’s?
And what, pray tell, is the difference between a prescriptive dictionary and a descriptive one? Which one is my webster?
Are you asking, or making a rhetorical point?
If you’re asking:
This difference is at the heart of this and every debate about language. You have to be careful not to come out too hard on either side. After all, many of the rules we follow now were simply errors and mistakes that previous generations made that became cemented into the language.
If you’re making a point, please elaborate.
(Yeah, just noticed that I wrote “proscriptive.” Freudian slip I guess).
Come down too hard on either side? What does that even mean? Descriptivism looks at the way people actually speak the language and records and analyzes that usage. It’s interesting and informative and takes into account past history and usage. Prescriptivism looks at a mythical golden age that moves around but is always safely a generation or so ago and says “write like that.” Much less useful.
If there were absolutely no prescriptivism, anyone could just make up any words and rules and definitions they wanted, even before a consensus developed.
This thread is proof that prescription - people consciously following rules and expecting others to in order to communicate - is part of, as you put it, part of the way people actually speak the language. They constantly reinforce rules, and no just on boards like this one or in English classrooms, but in the real world. It is not a golden age a generation ago, it is right now. If you don’t believe me, go use all kinds of slang and improper use etc. and see what the reaction is.
If that is too much for you, you can get the paperback instead of the hardcover for $51.21.
Flunking the test is a relationship between your answer and the teacher, not your answer and the truth. What are our criteria for determining the correctness of the testmaker?
The Oxford English Dictionary has instances of “reveal” as a noun dating back to 1596. It grew rare after the 17th century, but then came back (yes, via broadcasting) as early as 1952. It also has instances of “cite” as a noun dating back to 1957. That’s a hair older than the word “modem”. How long does it take for you to accept a term?
The Oxford English Dictionary has instances of “service” as a verb (unrelated to automobiles or prostitution) in unbroken usage since 1893. That’s 120 years ago, a decade older than the word “radio”. How fucking long does it take for you to accept a term?
Descriptivism is not anarchy. It is classification. Prescriptivism says there’s an innate quality to prepositions that means they cannot be at the end of the sentence. Descriptivism and Lady Bracknell, say, that’s clearly untrue and points to hundreds of examples of preposition stranding. Now, you could say, oh, I don’t know, that stranding a preposition in an academic paper is wrong and descriptivists would look at academic papers and either say, yes, people avoid stranding prepositions in papers or no, they don’t. Language doesn’t need to be babied.
Indeed, people can, and do, intentionally and unintentionally. Those terms then may or may not ever catch on and develop consensus usage. All this goes on regardless of whether ineffective prescriptivism barks snottily at the side. There’s never a ruling committee who bangs down the gavel and says “Ok, now it’s a word”; at least, not one that has any effect on how people speak.
I came in here for some minor word usage related venting but you guys are so far off track, I feel like I shouldn’t.
Whatever. It still pisses me off so I will vent.
My children bring home a reading log that we are to fill in and return to their teacher after they have read a certain number of times. In the text at the top it tells them to return it to ‘there’ teacher. This is handed out to every child in grades 1-6 so probably about 300 kids.
Since these are the people who are supposed to be educating my children, I simply crossed it out on each sheet that came home and replaced it with the correct ‘their.’ I thought that would be a subtle enough hint and that it would be replaced with a correctly-spelled sheet. WRONG!
After the sixth sheet, I phoned the school. Since it was a school-wide reading log, I talked to the secretary. After a fifteen minute lesson on the usage of their, there and they’re, she still didn’t believe that it was wrong. I asked to speak to the principal and was denied.
Now I am on a mission. I MUST have this fixed. They will keep using it, year after year. Kids will LEARN the wrong usage of ‘there.’ As if it wasn’t bad enough already.
So, I write a cryptic note to my daughter’s teacher asking her to call me. She does and I tell her about the mistake. She is sufficiently embarrassed. ‘Thank goodnesss,’ I think.
Fast forward to the next week, the EXACT same sheet comes home except that the ‘there’ has been crossed out WITH MAGIC MARKER on the original and replaced by, wait for it…
…thier.
That depends upon what the meaning of is is.
And not the least woody. Please pass the clotted cream.
A poll might decide whether most readers of that post think that’s a mistake or a whoosh.
How high? Pedantically speaking, it’s like rearing a child.
FWIW, I refuse to give my custom to Super Lube, which provides the ‘World’s “Best” Oil Change’.
Bollocks. There’s nothing wrong with the use of raise to mean rear. It’s a meaning listed in the OED for goodness sake. If you can’t count on the OED to be definitive, what on earth can you rely on?
But this means you believe there is no truth at all. We use words however we want, and we don’t need English teachers to teach us or give us tests. Anyone can use words any way they want at any time.
You tell me.
What does it say NOW?
Take it up with your English teacher.
Damn, you got me.
Nice.
Move to a new school district immediately!
So can we use any word any way we want at any time? Can we make up our own grammar too? Anything goes? Is that how you write, or teach your children?
If you really believe that prescriptivism is worthless snotty barking, then you can never ever complain about any use of a word or grammar or correct anyone, because you’d be doing the same thing. Even when you use description, since, after all, the language is constantly changing, and anyone has the right to be the first to change it. The very act of describing common usage is prescriptive too, since it relies on consensus. You can’t have a language that has no rules, otherwise it won’t work. Description tells us how the rules are made, and change, but they still exist.
I don’t deny that language changes, or that it should. Like I said, many of today’s correct English is simply yesterday’s errors. That’s why I said there’s a balance.
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
No, you are being presumptuous. I do recognize correctness conditions: correctness as determined by patterns of usage. Because I recognize correctness conditions, I can imagine a teacher making an error in their grading of a grammar test, just as they might in their grading of a physics or chemistry or history test.
See above.
Er, exactly what I was implying it does:
[QUOTE=OED: reveal, n.:]
Broadcasting and Advertising. A final revelation of something previously kept from an audience, a participant in a programme, etc. Freq. with the.
[/quote]
[QUOTE=OED: cite, n.:]
U.S.. = CITATION n. 3, 4.
[/quote]
That is, “cite” is short for “citation” in the following senses, as most on SDMB well know:
[QUOTE=OED: citation, n.:]
3. The action of citing or quoting any words or written passage, quotation; in Law, a reference to decided cases or books of authority.
4. concr. A passage cited, a quotation.
[/quote]
Why? My English teachers never complained about “service” as a verb; you did!
Don’t worry, in a few years all the dictionaries will say “badly” is just another adjective. Common use after all.