“[A]s passionate as I am about the grammar at issue here,” said panache, “I’m getting hysterical at all the example quotes in this thread!!!”
There’s not supposed to be a comma in the above example. The question mark supersedes it and makes it unnecessary. No, a question mark doesn’t ALWAYS make a comma unnecessary; just in this example. Similar rules apply to exclamation points that are part of quoted material and to questions that quote a question: you don’t put two question marks, e.g.,
"Did you say, “I am sick?”? = wrong
“Did you say, I am sick?” = right
Did you mean the latter to say:
Did you say, “I am sick?”
But according to this site (rule 2)
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.html
It should probably read
Did you say, “I am sick”?
AARGH!! I meant to write:
Did you say, “Am I sick?” = right
Because the statement “I am sick” is not a question. This agrees with what Rule 2 in your link says.
Never fails, there’s always a mistake in a grammar post.
Now someone’s going to say that “I am sick” can be a question. Okay, so it can under the right circumstances but it wasn’t meant to be in my example.
The convention is to put the comma inside the quotes. Arguing that it’s illogical or wrong is just plain anal retentiveness. Language is never entirely logical, and it would be much worse if it was.
True, but punctuation usually is pretty logical.
Concerning the logical quoting style (which I heartily endorse and use in my writing), the Jargon Dictionary has this to say:
I don’t have either of the referenced books to verify this, but I’m inclined to believe them.
So is correcting it when someone uses puts the punctuation outside the quotes.
The point here is that unlike many other language issues (they’re/their/there, writing in only lowercase letters, etc.) this “error” has a legitimate reason to be preferred over the accepted writing. It’s not a result of laziness or ignorance - it’s a deliberate decision.
I’ve been using the strict quoting convention a long time, now. People correct me, and I point out why I do it. Think globally, act locally :).
[hijack] Should the 
go inside or outside the punctuation? [/hijack]
Actually check out rule 2 again, the second example which reads:
Do you agree with the saying, “All’s fair in love and war”?
KidC, I am not sure what you mean. “All’s fair in love and war” is not a question. If it were a question - “Is all fair in love and war?” - then the question mark that is part of the quote would be inside the quotation marks and would be the only question mark used:
Did you say, “Is all fair in love and war?” [“Is all fair in love and war?” is a question in itself - thus, the question mark stays inside the quotation marks.]
vs.
Do you agree that “All’s fair in love and war”? [“All’s fair in love and war” is not a question in itself - thus, the question mark goes outside the quotation marks.]
These do follow the examples given in your link. Or am I not understanding your what you mean?
when i write in lowercase i do have a legitimate reason for it: it looks more aesthetically pleasing. however, this practice, by tradition, is not correct, just as it is not correct to place the comma outside the quotation marks.
I figured someone would respond this way eventually. :rolleyes:
You must do what you feel is right, of course. Good luck.
Missbunny
I was referring to this:
Did you say, “I am sick?” = right
Which should be: Did you say, “I am sick”?
But then I see you changed it to “Am I sick?” which is right.
NardoPolo: My reason for writing in lower case is just as good as yours for mis-use of punctuation.
So, while you’re busy rolling your eyes at how I could possibly misuse language in a way you do not agree with, where misplaced commas are concerned, I’ll repeat your words back to you.
You must do what you feel is right, of course. Good luck.
If punctuation within the quotes should be there only if the phrase or sentence on its own needs it, and if you punctuate outside the quotes without regard to the punctuation that may or may not end the quotation (since that punctuation “belongs” only to the quotation), wouldn’t you write sentences such as the following thusly?
"I like red wine.", said Bill.
Janet replied, "Doesn't everyone?".
Nope, I don’t like it.
I don’t know what the American convention is, but we don’t double up the punctuation marks like that in Britain, Bob. Our version would look like this:
“I like red wine”, said Bill.
Janet replied, “Doesn’t everyone?”
If the convention is illogical, we should stop using it. I agree that language will never be set in stone by rules. But in the case of punctuating quotes, I think ‘common sense’ should rule.
Example:
Would you please explain your statement that “one minus one equals two”?
is more natural than
Would you please explain your statement that “one minus one equals two?”
Isn’t this one supposed to be “I like red wine,” said Bill?
Which of course makes no sense to me either, hence the OP.
Not where I live. The way we do it, the comma would only appear inside the quotation marks if it was part of the speech.
“I like red wine”, said Bill.
“I like red wine too,” said Janet, “but I hate white”.
(the first sentence doesn’t need a comma at all IMHO, but it illustrates what we’re discussing)