My girlfriend the editor got into a disagreement with a fellow editor (who is in her 60s and immigrated from Germany as a child and then got American education). This colleague claims that way back when she was in school, she was taught to place punctuation marks outside of quotes, which according to her used to be American-style punctuation. My GF and I are convinced there was no such thing, because Americans have always put punctuation inside the quote marks. Or at least for as long as any of us have been alive. Did it use to be different? Who’s right?
According to World Wide Words, both American and British usage used to put punctuation inside the quotation marks, but British usage has recently moved away from this. There is no mention of American usage ever putting periods or commas outside the quotation marks. However, some American style experts advocate the current British convention (punctuating according to sense).
My guess is maybe she was taught the outside-the-quotes rule back in Germany, and this many years later is attributing it to her American schooling. But I don’t know which way the Germans do it.
AFAIIK – and I learned American-sryle in the 1950s and 60s – it has never been American custom to put the comma or period outside an actual quotation. Rarely you might see a single word put into quotation marks to distance the author from the term (e.g., the so-called “Moral Majority”) in which the punctuation might possibly follow the closing quote mark. Question and exclamation marks go inside or out according to whether the full sentence or the quoted utterance is the question or exdamation.
Within the last few years, with the movement to proportional spacing in word processing, there has been a tendency to put closing punctuation outside the closing quotation mark in order to provide separation between quotation marks: The three volumes in which The Lord of the Rings was published were titled “The Fellowship of the Ring”, “The Two Towers”, … But this is very new and far from a universal custom.
Interesting. I put the punctuation inside the quotes when it’s part of the quote itself: (So I told him to “Go to hell.”) But outside when it’s not: (Some street vendor tried to sell me a $20 “Rolex”.)
This is also the way I remember learning it…and you beat me to the punch by postiing first (FWIW - if my education were characterised it would be the “British System”.)
same situation here.
And I’m posting as an American, just as a reference point.
Really? Because I was taught to do it that way back in the 1970’s… and I was educated in the US.
Standard US style – as promoted in the Chicago Manual of Style and the AP Stylebook (used by all US newspapers) – is to put the period or comma before the quote (Question marks and exclamation points can go either way, depending on the meaning of the sentence.). It’s been that way for at least a century.
The origin was that, in typesetting, the period and quote was less likely to cause a broken type mold than the quote and period. The letter before the period helps support the pressure; the blank space after the ". means it’s weak). This was fully entrenched when phototypesetting replaced cold type, and there was no compelling reason to change.
I was taught to always include it in quotes, but I always thought your way made far more sense. I never understood why you would quote punctuation that wasn’t originally there or intended.
I was taught to put them inside (American) but after a long period of not writing much then when I returned to doing academic papers, I noticed a respected writer/teacher put them outside so I got confused and start doing it her way (maybe she was UK educated or whatever). Perhaps I have to change again?
Everywhere I can get away with it, I put the period/comma outside. If the person didn’t say a period or comma, then it doesn’t get inside the quotes. That’s my rule.
I was taught in high school and college (USA, 1970s) that a comma or period always goes before closing quotation marks. I was never certain about colons, though. I would rearrange sentences to avoid writing something like this:
Two different actors played Darrin on “Bewitched”: Dick York and Dick Sargent.
Is that right or wrong?
Colons go outside the quotation marks.
As others have said, I was taught all through my education that you always put periods and commas inside quotes, but exclamation or question marks depend on whether the quoted material included them or not
And this is generally my rule as well. I understand that the main purpose for the current standard is related to antiquated technology, and some will argue that there’s no reason to change. I disagree, I think it’s a simple enough change and it improves consistency and clarity. Why include a period in the quote if the quote isn’t a complete sentence? Why include a comma if the original speaker didn’t pause? I’ve been doing it that way ever since I learned to type, much to my teachers’ chagrin.
Unless (in the “logical” or “British” system) it’s part of the quotation, e.g.,
The letter’s first line was “To whom it may concern:”.
or
A URL starts with “http:” to denote that the web browser should interpret it using the Hypertext Transfer Protocol.
As noted, American style is to always put periods and commas (but not necessarily question marks or exclamation points) inside quotation marks. I’ve wondered whether the British practice of using single quotes where Americans used double quotes is what makes Brits willing to put period and commas outside the quotes. A period after a single quote isn’t separated quite so much from the word it follows, so it doesn’t look as floaty-out-in-spacey.
Reading RealityChuck’s post about typesetting makes me think this actually may have something to do with it.
I was taught (in the US) to always put the punctuation inside the quotes. I considered it a misquotation to do so unless, of course, the punctuation is part of the quote. So I stopped doing it. No copy editor has ever complained.
It’s wrong because TV show titles get italicized, not put in quotes. Individual episode titles go in quotes, though.
Likewise, book titles are italicized, but short story titles go in quotes.
Titles of long epic poems get italicized, but titles of short poems go in quotes.
Album titles get italicized, but song titles go in quotes. (E.g. the title track of Let It Be is “Let It Be.”)
Opera titles get italicized, but IINM individual aria titles go in quotes.
Titles of plays, movies, and works of art get italicized. Also names of ships and genus and species names get italicized.
(No underlining any of the above! Unless you’re using an old typewriter that can’t do italics.)
Yeah, I do some editing on the side myself.