The rule in American English is that the period always goes on the inside of the quotation mark including the period marking the end of a sentence. Do you all agree or disagree? If you agree, do you always follow the rule? Sometimes I do not. For example, consider the following instruction:
Enter “FAIL” in the box on Line 6 if the result is greater than 1, otherwise enter “PASS”.
In this hypothetical, for whatever reason, entering “PASS.” would have undesirable consequences.
In general, I believe it is OK to deliberately break grammar or style rules if it effects better communication to the reader. What do you all think?
(Upon creating this topic, I see that this question has already been asked at least five times on this message board but not within the last ten years.)
I’d say that it’s misleading to quote “I shot the clerk?” as “I shot the clerk”. I’d also say that it’s a step further, into straight-up dishonesty, to quote “I shot the clerk?” as “I shot the clerk.”
Absolutely! Communication is ultimately what language is all about. Grammar and style rules are largely in the category of guidance, and though some rules are pretty much inviolable, others are little more than guidance or arbitrary conventions.
The quotation mark convention is somewhat of an American vs British distinction. American publishers have tended to put periods and commas inside the quote, with some exceptions. It’s in the interest of appearance rather than any kind of logic. The British, with their use of the single quote as the primary quotation mark, have tended to put the period or comma outside the quote mark.
Anecdotally I find that informal communication, as opposed to typeset printed work, tends to put the comma or period outside. In your example of the quoted word “PASS”, I would consider that to be a special case of using quote marks as a delineator rather than a literal quotation, and definitely place the period outside.
I agree that that is the rule in American English.
I strongly suspect that this rule is based largely on aesthetics. In American English, “standard” quotation marks are double quotes, and a period placed after a double quote looks weird and isolated from the rest of the sentence (especially in a monospaced font, like on the typewriters that were so common before the computer age).
I agree with the OP that logic would dictate that the period should sometimes go outside the quotation marks. On the other hand, sometimes there’s no clear logical reason for putting it inside vs. outside, so it’s nice to have a clear rule to follow.
I technically know the rules. I break them all the time when I’m writing (and then have to go back and fix stuff, if it’s in a context where it matters sufficiently). The rules are insufficient and arbitrary at the same time.
If I wish to construct a sentence that begins:
She asked me
followed by what she asked me, in quotation marks, which is
“When is the train coming?”
…those are actually two sentences, one of which is a statement and the other of which is a question, and logically they should both have end-of-sentence punctuation, and our rules should (but don’t) call for that.
If I were the one making the grammar rules, the resulting sentence would be properly rendered as:
She asked me, “When is the train coming?”.
Much more often, I’m doing a sentence involving someone making a statement, and my instinct is to put a period after the quotation mark. Again, there really ought to be two of them:
Williams shrugged and continued, “Well, do what you want, but I’m staying indoors.”.
I don’t like the rule and I follow it sparingly based on what the text looks like. If it’s too obvious, or as a professor once told me, “if it’s too out there,” I remove it and put nothing inside or outside the quotation marks, letting the sentence flow after the end quoation mark without commas.
I also don’t like putting the period inside quotation marks at the end of a sentence. This is unnecessary adherence to an arbitrary rule. Punctuation should be used to control the tempo and ensure the reader reads the text the way you wrote it. That is what it is.
I include the punctuation inside the quote if it is part of the quote. If I’m adding my own punctuation I place it outside.
The main reason I’ve heard for not doing this is that “It doesn’t look nice.” So what? This is yet another silly form over function thing.
Did Patrick Henry really say “Give me liberty or give me death.”?
This is obviously correct. Putting the “?” inside the quote is stupid. Of course there are the folks who suggest to reword the whole thing. Waste of time.
Are you writing for a formal publication that adheres to a particular style guide? If the answer is yes, then follow that style guide, even if it leads off a cliff.
The Dope has no style guide. Most of the internet has no style guide. Most writing that people do for themselves has no style guide.
How do you write good in the absence of a style guide? Well, personally, my guide is also to effect “better communication to the reader.” I lean toward putting the period inside quotes because that’s what most people are used to seeing in formal writing. Nevertheless, whenever doing so might impede understanding I lean toward putting the period outside quotation marks. Many good examples of the need to do so have been given in this thread.
I don’t break grammar or style rules, however. Good reasons to break grammar rules almost never exist, except for humorous purposes. I don’t break style rules either. There are no - I cannot emphasize this strongly enough - no style rules. Style guides do not contain rules the way grammar contains rules. They are a collection of decisions and choices and weirdness accrued over time and circumstance. Every few years a new edition is released that asks users to unlearn what they memorized before, often because new modes of communication have appeared. Style always runs behind reality. The system is clumsy, maddening, and often incomprehensible. Professional copyeditors learn the details; no one else need bother.
Sure, if you as an individual want to voluntarily adhere to Chicago style, e.g., go ahead and do so. That will be basically invisible, except to all the people who have learned to follow other style guides. Ignoring Chicago style when you disagree with it, though, is a completely proper choice to make.
Just remember: style rules do not exist. Conventions of style, like putting the period inside of quotation marks, do exist. People I like to call the Illiterate Pedants often pounce on the deliberate disregard of conventions and treat them as if they were bigger errors than sailing the Titanic into an iceberg. Razz them and move on.
FWIW, Wikipedia’s Manual of Style says to put terminal punctuation outside the quotation marks. It calls this “logical quotation” style, and I think it is more logical than the usual American style.
In general, punctuation should go inside quotes, but there are legitimate exceptions. The sentence above is one of them because it’s an instruction/command where entering the word “Pass” sans punctuation makes a critical difference.
It is one question which happens to contain a quote. The use of a colon - instead of a comma - before the quote would eliminate any (misguided) notion for double punctuation.
The use of double punctuation at the end would be insulting to (experienced) readers who understand a question is being asked about the quote, which is well-known in the U.S. Note that a comma after “say” would be advisable, but either way, it wouldn’t affect where the question mark goes (i.e., inside the quotes).
Applying literal thinking to punctuation can make writing come off as amateurish.
The rule I follow is that stuff that’s getting quoted goes inside of quotation marks, and stuff that’s not getting quoted goes outside of quotation marks. This often results a period or other sentence-ending mark both before and after the ending quotation mark. Which shouldn’t bother anyone, because there are, after all, two sentences which are being ended.
I never use 2 periods or a period and another mark (question mark, exclamation mark) at the end of a sentence. One mark inside the quote, or one mark outside the quote – not both.
Most style guides that get into the nitty gritty of why things are the way they are will say that was one sentence. The part that’s in quotes is the object part. It’s what the character said. Try considering just the first part on its own,
She asked me.
She asked you what? The sentence is not over, so don’t put a period there.