This is exactly what you would say if you did have a secret reason.
I’m just saying.
Well, which is it? Better than nothing, or better than anything else? I don’t think anyone would assert the later. Personally, I would imagine that SMART Recovery is better for people who are dogmatically atheistic. I don’t know anyone who has tried both, but then, I don’t think either program would insist that it is superior.
Really, what is the point of this debate? AA isn’t a treatment. To demand “proof” that it “works” makes as much sense as demanding “proof” that Buddhism "works.’ Unless your spouse is neglecting familial responsibilities to go to AA, I can’t see why it matters to you. The only thing I can imagine is that you want to say that all the people who go to AA are dupes, and despite themselves, they get absolute nothing out of it–or, even more dubious, you want to say the AA makes people drink more.
Well, I am just using the term ‘cult-like’ because that is the weird way it came off to me.
For instance, he began accusing everyone of having a drinking problem. He was the one who lost jobs, drank to passing out, and pissed off his wife from drinking. But when he started the program he started saying everyone had a drinking problem. He talked about his sponsor like the sponsor was a saint (maybe she was, who knows) and he became pushy with the ‘higher power’ talk even though he knew no one in our circle believed in it. So yeah. Culty.
Does it matter what meetings I went to? Are you seriousely suggesting that the Big Book and the 12 and 12 don’t define AA? Those are the essence of AA. Without those, AA lacks any meaningful definition.
This is one of the many problems with judging the efficacy of AA. There are so many people who claim to be an AA but who are not following AA. When these people suceed, they’re one more example of how well AA works. When they fail they were never really “doing the steps” and thus cannot be said to reflect negatively on the efficacy of AA.
Also, I think this phrasing reveals a misunderstanding of AA. It doesn’t dictate “terms,” and guarantee a cure for fulfilling them. It suggests some techniques to take away the obsession to drink, primarily though group therapy. Really, nothing more than that.
It doesn’t require you to join a cult, or engage in “cult-like” behavior. (I’m sure some people may do that about AA, but then, people do that about Star Trek, too.) Nor does it require you to accept any particular religion. From what I’m told, the generic “god” that AA refers to is really just a way to get out of self-centeredness.
You can go to an AA session every day, or once a month, or once a year, and no one cares. They don’t have membership cards; anyone can walk in and anyone can walk out at any time. I really can’t see the scamming-cult-conspiracy scenario that is being suggested here.
I would like to retract the ‘cult-like’ statement that I posted. I am sorry I used that term. I knew this guy very well before he ever became an alcoholic and before he ever joined the group, so I felt comfortable noting changes in his behavior. I shouldn’t use inflammetory language like that in this thread though.
I don’t know, I think that is a valid point to have out there. AA does get called a cult a lot so it might as well be something that gets thrown on the table.
Regarding your friend, what I can tell you is that the changes that you observed in him are 180 degrees from what the AA literature advocates. AA members are repeatedly admonished not to be crusaders or evangelists. To have a program of attraction and not promotion. To let simply tell their story and let others decide if they do or do not have a problem with alcohol.
I think it is like any organization. You can have the best intents, the best guidelines for members and you are still going to get the occasional wingnut.
I am not sure what kind of meetings you went to (or who for that matter apparently beat you senseless with the word god at those meetings) but A.A. is all about changing yourself and the god part is totally optional. Sorta like how people can agree with the 10 commandments without believing in god. (‘Thou shall not kill’, Hey, that is a pretty good idea)
I haven’t made up my own version of A.A., I took what I needed and left the rest. If you haven’t heard that phrase then I have serious doubts about how many meetings you went to. I hear that at almost every meeting I go to. I use that phrase myself quite often.
And you are wrong about the 12 steps.The 12 steps, for me and many recovering alcoholics I know, have everything to do with getting sober. They are a way of changing your thinking about the world and the way you react to it. Which, IMHO, is a key to staying sober.
I don’t discount the text. I interpret it, just like everyone else interprets everything they read. When they mention god, I think biology. I am an alcoholic due to biology and all the wishful thinking in the world won’t change that. When the book says that I cannot do it myself, that a higher power is required I know that it is true. The higher power isn’t a god. It is a method of living. The method A.A. taught me. It is the program that works. God is irrelevant.
In A.A. you will constantly hear the phrase ‘god as we understood him’. I understand that god doesn’t exist. However, reality is real and the reality is my body processes alcohol differently than most people.
What I find odd about the whole god thing is that I have been to a large number of meetings. Other than people saying that they pray, it has never been an issue at the meetings I have attended. If people ask, I tell them that I am an atheist. The only person who insisted that I had to believe in god so that I would stay sober was my Dad. He read part of the text that mentioned god and took it, just like you, literally. My Dad isn’t an alkie and isn’t in the program. I haven’t had god forced down my throat at any meeting.
Nzinga, Seated, have you ever met anyone who became a born again Christian and had to tell everyone about their new found religion? If not you are lucky. Your friend, and many newbies in A.A. suffer from what I call the ‘True Religion’ syndrome. They find something that works for them and suddenly *everyone *must believe what they believe. I have run into this a couple times. However, I have run into it more often when people get a religion. Heck, I lost one of my best friends to his Christianity. He got religion and, according to him, I *had *to do the same. He was so excited about his new religion that he thought the only way to be happy was to believe as he believed. He wouldn’t leave it alone and we don’t talk anymore. Sad, but it happens and it is not solely an A.A. thing.
Now on to the important part.
Dangle, I am sorry that this has turned into another A.A. argument. It happens every time A.A. is brought up on this board*. For whatever reason some people have a huge hard-on about A.A. I haven’t quite figured out why. Anyway, please give it a try. You can find a meeting by going to the A.A. website or most areas have an A.A. hotline you can call. Go to a couple meetings. It will be uncomfortable the first time you go. You won’t know what to expect and it will be scary. Or at least it was for me the first time I went. But go. You won’t have to say anything. You can just sit and listen. If you find that the meeting is too religious, find another and try it again. Like any other program involving people, some meetings are better than others. It just depends on what you feel comfortable with. But try it.
I won’t promise that it will work for you. However, it does work for a lot of people.
Slee
*I find it amazing that so many people freak about a program that is non-profit, does not endorse any political policy and aims to help people. There is nothing in the program that, if done, will harm anyone. It may help, though it doesn’t work for everyone.
I wanted to do one of those Quoted For Truth posts. Also, to apologize to the OP if I helped get this thread off track. You are, I am sure, really hurting at the moment. I would love it if you checked in and told us how you were doing. Try to remember that what is happening to you is not the end of the world. It is just what is happening right now. You can get through this, though it will probably be the hardest thing you have ever done. Keep hope.
[ul][li]Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.[/li][li]Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.[/li][li]Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.[/li][li]Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.[/li][li]Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.[/li][li]Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.[/li][li]Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.[/ul][/li]
God optional!
Enough with the hijack. If y’all want to debate AA again, start a thread in GD.
In this thread, let’s focus on offering some help to the OP.
twickster, MPSIMS moderator
OK, I will offer some advice to the OP - don’t waste your time on things that don’t help.
Regards,
Shodan
The woman I speak of received awards as an alcoholism counsellor. When we walked through town, strangers approached to tell me the woman I was with had saved their lives! Yes I will give these “anecdotes” particular credence.
As for your “study”, I haven’t studied it, but I have reviewed enough studies to know deliberate misuse of statistics is often the rule, rather than exception! In the GD forum, I hardly bother click on the economic data linked to by certain Dopers anymore: many cited pages have little value.
Some studies require considerable effort and expertise to determine their validity; I have neither the time nor the talent to pursue this one. But let me help you out here, Shodan: Just because the title includes the word “Study” and the author has a PhD, it doesn’t follow that the conclusions are necessarily correct.
Excellent advice. I would add that for a condition as serious as alcoholism you should investigate several options.
You’ve made that point. Several times. Let it drop.
I don’t care which side of the argument anyone is on: please take all further discussion about the pros and cons of AA to a new thread in GD.
Yep. As I said above, this sounds like a textbook case of Epsilon alcoholism. Literally, this could have come right out of the book. Your next step should probably be to your doctor.
The first one might be a bit problematic.
First let me say I’m not too put out that the thread got hijacked. I was a bit too busy to post anyway and I love a good argument. It’s normally quite funny.
Secondly, I will definitely not be doing AA. Mainly because I listened to everyone who said I’m not really an alcoholic and I think AA is focussed on not drinking. Not drinking is not difficult for me. I decided to spend more time on the underlying issues and find a better outlet for my stress and anger. Getting back on my bike and going to gym will, I think, help a lot. Also spending more time talking to the right people.
Lastly thanks for everyone who has offered advice, their own stories and experiences or just entertained me with the AA discussion 
The OP says he/she has concerns about their behavior while drinking. The OP indicated they are interested in advice on how to deal with this and also indicated they have some reservations about AA.
Many people have reservations about AA. In order to help the OP it is very important (IMO) to remind him/her that there are other means of addressing a drinking problem than AA. But it’s difficult to escape the conventional wisdom (in the USA as a whole–not quite so much on the SDMB) that if you have any problem with drinking, you go to AA. Simple as that. However, because AA is statistically no more effective then no treatment at all it would be most unhelpful to not address the questionable efficacy of that group in a thread like this.
It’s true that AA is the best solution for a small percentage of problem drinkers. By the same token, it would seem that it’s not an effective solution for the majority of problem drinkers. Yet virtually all problem drinkers in the USA are steered toward, or compelled to attend AA meetings even though a significant number of these people aren’t even alcohol dependent.
To provide the most benefit to the OP it’s necessary for us to talk about all of the options available, including the option of steering clear of AA–especially if it’s not an appropriate treatment (as an abstinence-only program) for one’s alcohol-related problems. This is usually the case if one has abused alcohol, but isn’t “allergic” to it. Anyone in the OP’s situation should be sure their doctor/therapist* is willing to discuss *all *available options with them.
Given the fervency that some believers show for AA it is unavoidable that there will be friction when evidence is introduced that calls into question the usefulness (system-wide, not individually) of 12-Step programs.
That there is a debate about this is a good thing for someone trying to figure out where to go for help (and where not to). Admittedly, it can go a bit overboard on occasion.
*In order to get a objective and disinterested opinion about one’s treatment options it’s important to find a caregiver who is not actively working the 11th Step (if possible). This conflict of interest between what is best for the patient, and what is necessary for such a caregiver to remain sober leaves the patient at an obvious disadvantage.
On edit-- I had read no further than the post I quoted from when I started writing this very long post.
–Posted because the edit window expired–
FYI–I had read no further than the quoted post from twickster when i composed my very long, and frequently revised post above.