I think it's time to embrace women not shaving

In My Humble Opinion
81

As a woman who doesn’t shave, I was kinda excited to see the title of this thread. Pretty dispiriting to read through it though, honestly. I mean I have a problem with even the first post—women aren’t just sex objects and our value is not down to how attractive we are. That Huffpo thing makes it sound like “women shouldn’t shave because it’s erotic” rather than “women shouldn’t have to shave because they just shouldn’t have to.”

There seem to be only a handful of posts in this thread that are actually supportive of women not shaving their legs or armpits, which is pretty sad.

I stopped shaving my legs because I have really sensitive skin. I tried different types of razors, depilatories, waxing… they all had problems for me. Rashes, itch, pain, ingrown hairs, not to mention the stubble because my hair grows FAST (hairdresser is always shocked at how much hair has grown since I saw her last). All of those after-shave “soothers” didn’t help any either. The best thing I ever found—the least painful and prone to giving me other problems—was an men’s electric shaver, but even that was sometimes painful and never gave me a close shave, so my legs were never actually smooth. And it took a lot of time because I had to make several passes. So after ~15 years I decided to stop fighting that losing battle with my body every day.

And I was happy, yay! But then it was spring. I live in a place where spring time temperatures are often in the 80s, summers often to 110. So covering my legs up, as I had been doing, was going to be increasingly uncomfortable. I cannot tell you how scared I was to leave the house with my unshaven legs on display. I had so, so much anxiety about it, and I felt so vulnerable. Most people aren’t actually rude enough to say “eww!” or “gross!” to my face—in fact, not a single person has. I’ve gotten looks, definitely (all of them from women), but no one has actually said anything negative.

So it just kinda sucks to click on the thread and read all this “ewwwwww” “gross” “well I GUESS it wouldn’t be a deal breaker if MY WIFE stopped shaving her legs, but I would TELL HER to wear dark hose” “they look like apes” like no matter how awesome someone is, if she doesn’t shave her legs or her pits then she’s worthless, worthy of contempt, less than human, no longer able to walk un-hosed in her own home.

Also, “my issue with these kinds of things is that it’s trying to impose on other people what they should or shouldn’t find attractive”? Have you ever seen an ad? Or watched TV? Or seen a movie? Or hell, even gone outside? Shaving is absolutely imposed on women. I didn’t realize how deeply ingrained it is until I tried to stop doing it myself and was actually scared about what would happen to me, how people would treat me. I noticed that there are more women in my city who have shaved and tattooed heads than women who let unshaven legs be seen. I know that if I go to a job interview, I can’t wear a sleeveless shirt or a skirt/shorts. I mean, yeah, I can, but when studies show that women who don’t wear makeup are discriminated against in the workplace, what do you think my chances of being hired in this environment are? Social conditioning imposes the idea that people should find shaved women attractive, and this is one tiny insignificant blip of opposition, and yet it’s the thing that’s imposing a definition of attractive?

Anyway… It’s been five years since I stopped shaving and I still get self-conscious about it. Not as much as I used to but there are definitely days where I wish so much that it was just easy for me to shave. And I hate that. I hate that society makes me feel that way. My body grows the hair, it’s obviously meant to be there because every time I removed it it would come back, and I am so much more comfortable without the pain and the itching and the stubble. But I still want to, because of the attitudes that society gives us all, so nicely on display in this thread. And that’s crap. I shouldn’t have to hurt myself on a daily basis merely to be considered “not gross” or “not disgusting” or “not an ape.” The attitude that I should be doing that is what it is actually gross. IMHO. :slight_smile:

82

I don’t think I’ve ever shaved my legs. My leg hair is fine and pale, so it doesn’t show much. (And when I wore nylons every day that was enough that I eventually lost all of it, but it seems to have grown back now that I don’t have to wear hose.) But I absolutely support your right not to shave.

I know I’m one of the people who said the leg hair didn’t look sexy to me. But I have some friends with thick dark leg hair. It’s not disgusting, just sort of masculine.

Anyhow, I recommend lightweight slacks for an interview. That’s what men have to wear, so it’s sort of fair. And while people form first impressions for all sorts of stupid irrational reasons, it would take a real dolt to hold leg hair against someone they already know.

83

Thanks for saying so (about supporting the right not to shave). :slight_smile: I don’t care if people think it’s unsexy–I don’t particularly think of it as “sexy” myself, it is just sort of is, you know? It’s the reactions of things like “so gross”/“you’re an ape” that I find hurtful.

And yeah, slacks and blouses is what I do, I agree it seems pretty fair, but sometimes I just wanna wear the pretty clothes like other women get to.

84

I think you are being a little too precious here. Not shaving at all is not (currently) a neutral social choice for women, it is fraught with judginess and anxiety. Offering the opinion that not shaving is a perfectly acceptable choice and does not diminish attractiveness is (IMO) more empowering than objectifying. Yes you can get on a podium and declare that whether it’s sexually attractive or not shouldn’t matter as personal choice, but the reality is that it is a western cultural norm and the pressure to be attractive matters quite a lot.

85

I’m not sure what you think is precious about it? I’m pretty sure I made it clear that I know not shaving at all is currently not a neutral social choice for women… didn’t I say that it was fraught with anxiety for me? I don’t think it diminishes attractiveness (or enhances it)–but I still feel like it does, when I’m walking around without my legs shaved, mainly due to, like I said, the attitudes on display in this thread, the ones that reflect the dominant cultural norm that shaving is compulsory and not doing so is gross. So yeah, I know, and I’m aware of the pressure to be attractive. I’m just saying that, ideally, in my mind, women shouldn’t be told not shave in order to be erotic, like being sexy is this big prize that’s important over everything else (even when it’s often treated that way, again by our dominant norms). I want to see a world where women feel comfortable making choices based on what they feel like doing with their body hair rather than on an imperative to be sexy. Is that really precious? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your meaning. If not, then yeah, I’m definitely precious :slight_smile:

86

On the first point, attractiveness, we might say various mantra of “we’re all beautiful” or whatever, but the fact is, I don’t get to define whether other people find me attractive. And I don’t see anything inherently wrong with someone saying “I personally find that gross” or even “you’d get more dates if you did X”.

On the latter point; that people can do what they want with their bodies and shouldn’t need anyone to tell them what is “right”, I think that has been the majority view here.

I think possibly you’re confusing these two points.

87

But if you do, you should embrace women not shaving, because if you embrace women shaving, you could get cut.

88

Hmm. Maybe? Could you elaborate on what you mean by you think I’m confusing them? I’ll elaborate on my points below and tell me what you think:

On the first point: I agree basically that I, as a person, “don’t get to define what other people define attractive” (but I do think that society to a very very large degree does define what people find attractive, and I don’t have a problem with trying to shift society to a place where there is more of a diversity in what is considered attractive). I don’t see anything inherently wrong with people saying “I personally find that gross” either–I just wish, personally, they wouldn’t apply it to something completely normal and hygienic like body hair that is going to grow regardless and takes lots of time and expense (and in my case pain and discomfort) to remove, and would instead reserve it for, like, chimps smearing poop on zoo windows.

On the latter point: I guess it’s been the majority view? I feel the majority view is opposed to it and does find it gross, and saying things like ~well you can do it sure you do it but you look like a nasty ape~ and being told here that that is also the majority view (“the vast majority think it’s flat-out gross”), and feeling that sentiment is prevalent when I go outside sometimes… yeah, I have the “right” to do what I want with my body, we all do, but we’ve been so heavily conditioned to see only hairless-bodied women as beautiful. When there is so much pressure to conform, the “right” to do something doesn’t necessarily translate into feeling safe, comfortable, or empowered to do so. There are more people committing crimes in my small city every day than women who go around publicly with leg hair on display, so the norm of “no hair” is actually enforced, in reality, more than than the actual law.

Does that make sense?

89

I’ve dated both men and women, and prefer them hairy (but clean). I’ll usually tell them this, and 9/10 they’ll be relieved and maintain their hair less. I think it’s comforting to have a SO who doesn’t care about hair and isn’t grossed out. There’s so many things worse than being hairy.

As for the images - I love the arm pit hair on women. It’s cute.
(I’m a woman, if that matters)

90

I don’t shave my pubes, sometimes I landscape, sometimes not. I’ve kept a painstaking count of the number of people who turned down sex with me for that reason. That number is zero.

91

cbrjspr, you raise a number of points. I’m going to do one of those sentence-by-sentence responses, I hope you don’t think I’m trying to pull stuff out of context.

Well, personally I think the contribution from social conditioning gets overblown, but let’s put that to one side.
I think it’s important to accept that individuals of course discriminate when it comes to relationships, and that societies have preferences on average, regardless of whether such preferences are nature or nurture.
It’s so universal, I can’t imagine a human society behaving otherwise; not having things that a majority of people finds hawt or icky.

Whether something is natural though is largely irrelevant. Much of what we do in our daily life such as regular bathing and brushing teeth is unnatural.
On hair specifically, one thing I should mention is that I’m a guy but I shave my armput hair, and shave or at least trim my pubic hair based on partners’ preference. I do personally find it more hygenic as I sweat less and find it easier to keep these areas fresh.
BTW WRT skin sensitivity, I usually just use scissors / electric trimmer / wet shave and put up with some burning / irritation. But when I’ve bothered to use depilatory creams, like Magic Cream Shave there was virtually no irritation. Worth trying, if you haven’t already.

But again, that’s two separate points.
While I would not agree with the (one) person that used the word “ape”, I don’t think there’s any inconsistency in saying “If you want to be a hairy woman, all power to you…but I think most people find it gross”.
Actually, going back to the ape thing, I want to reiterate that I would not excuse anyone for being rude to you. But on an anonymous discussion forum, people pointing out that they think the majority of people find X gross…I’ve no problem with that.

You probably don’t see many people in zoot suits either. When will the crackdown cease?

Or, to find a natural example, how about just body odour? While no doubt more people break the BO “rule” than women showing hairy legs, it’s nevertheless the case that such people (cough men) will find it harder to get dates and will sometimes encounter rudeness (though they may be oblivious to it).

92

Ding ding ding ding!

I thought your point was quite clear the first time, and bang on. It’s a great example of how sexist societal attitudes impact everyone at a subconscious level; many men and women automatically connect so many choices available to women to whether or not “men”* will think it’s attractive.

And yep, the overwhelming frame of the linked article and of this thread is exactly that. The entire premise is supposed to be about how liberating and freeing it is for women to make their own choice (to not remove body hair), but all the photos are sensual or erotic. It’s much less, “women can and should do whatever the fuck they want with their body hair, just as men can and should” and more, “hey, everyone! Women who don’t remove their body hair aren’t automatically disgusting apes! They can still be totally hot and bangable! Look!”

  • y’know, that other large monolith that has no variation in thought or preferences. :wink:
93

If you look at pictures of two silhouettes, one of a girl & one of a woman, I’d bet you could get them right every single time no matter what angle you viewed them from, front, back, or side since the woman has the curves of hips & breasts. Presence/absence of pubic hair is not what makes a woman look like an adult to me.
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Once more with feeling: I am absolutely not saying that other people who are pleased by the appearance of hairless females are somehow into prepubescent girls. I said that that appearance does have that resonance for me. It doesn’t look adult to me. That, in turn, does not mean that I cannot distinguish a shaved adult woman from a young girl. It only means that for me an adult woman with her hairs all shaved off looks like an adult woman who is trying to mimic a prepubescent girl. That, in turn, does not mean that she is, in fact, trying to do so. Just that for whatever reason (possibly one indicative of my own twisted psyche), that’s how it looks to me.

94

No worries, I don’t think you are. I’m gonna do the same to you so I hope you don’t mind :slight_smile:

I think what it really boils down to is this:

And I’m of the opinion that it’s not considered nearly enough, at least in the mainstream (I think places like this forum for example are more apt to consider it). After taking a few sociology classes and actually witnessing the way people’s opinions on things shift after learning about social conditioning, and after stepping outside of the norms myself and feeling so much anxiety over it and seeing some people’s reactions, I definitely don’t think it’s overblown. So this may be the real source of any disagreement.

Is that really true though? What’s the criteria for “natural”? Chinchillas take dust baths, birds take water baths, there’s those birds that clean crocodile teeth, and non-human primates constantly groom. We just extend that to showers because our species (naturally) had brains that figured out how (and had the ability to marshal the resources to put them in homes). Most other animals don’t need to brush their teeth because of their diet; if animals consistently ate things that rotted teeth, we might see more “natural” toothbrush-users.
(Also: Not that it isn’t “natural,” but I never actually used that word to descsribe body hair because I’m aware that is not the best defense for something.)

I mean… I see “but most people find it gross” as kind of undercutting “all power to you.” How can all power be to me if most people are going to scorn me? Then again, I don’t really like/use the phrase “more power to you” myself because it seems sarcastic and dismissive. Regardless of whether there’s inconsistency there or not, it’s just, like I say, disheartening.

I don’t have a problem with them pointing that out, per se, I have a problem with it being the dominant norm in our culture. I’m not like “hey you shouldn’t say that!” I’m like “it sucks that you’re taught to think that.” I have a problem with the fact that society at large does see me (and other women who don’t shave) as gross. Not only does it impact how other people see me and treat me, it impacts how I feel about myself, like how the more widely unattainable beauty standards have well-documented costs as well.

Right, exactly, this is a perfect example of social norms vis-a-vis clothing. Provin’ my point! :slight_smile:
Also,

Thank you :slight_smile: It’s a super frustrating phenomenon.