I’m sure that insults are unnecessary, Bill.
YOu know what?
Forget pre-marriage classes-how about pre-PARENTAL classes.
I mean, you need a license to fish, but any moron can have kids!
Now THAT’s a scary thought.
Gee, any moron can respirate, eliminate waste, and take in nourishment, too. Any other natural biological functions you would like the state’s permission for?
Andros, I was just kidding around. I take it back. OK?
And you haven’t gave me a response yet. What do you think?
Two points:
My first marriage was in a Catholic church and we had to go through 40 hours of premarital counseling…that didn’t stop my first husband from deciding to start dating again after 15 months of marriage. My second marriage has been going strong for 5 years. No classes, wedding was six minutes long in front of a JP (who never mentioned Jesus or God). Classes do not help when the wedding train is coming through - almost nothing stops the wedding train.
Second - as someone who experience three years of infertility…not any idiot can have children. I understand what you mean, but 10% of us have trouble doing it, and it doesn’t seem to be linked to IQ at all.
Obviously, you missed my point.
Having a child is NOT the same as deciding to get married. Having and raising a child is a RESPONSIBILITY. No, I didn’t say I wanted to get the state’s permission. However, I’ve seen so many shitty parents to make me rethink that position.
Think about it: what if Charles Manson had decided he wanted to have a child? Do you think he should be responsible for taking care of another human being?
(BTW, the original post was tongue in cheek…)
Oh, and I didn’t mean to say it like that. What I MEANT was, there is absolutely no way to decide if someone is fit to raise a child. Any idiot can have kids means that any idiot can just raise a child without anyone else worrying about the consequences.
Sheesh!
If the divorce rate is truly on the rise, I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing, and I don’t know if the classes would actually stop that anyway. Those types of classes have been in place for at least twenty years in churches around this area, and I don’t think it had much effect on the divorce rate one way or another. Most of the people I talked to just considered those classes to be another hoop to jump through, and I never heard of anyone deciding NOT to marry after taking the classes.
I like the idea of less stigma being attached to leaving an abusive or cold marriage, and the marriages in the last century that stayed together for the sake of the children may have passed on questionable moral values to those children (cheating on your spouse is okay if it is done discreetly, sceaming and yelling, or distant silence, is a valid way to communicate; just some possible examples).
What I would like to see made available through various channels (churches, continuing education classes, seminars ?) is divorce counseling for the entire family: the divorcing parents and the children, to explain things to the kids in a neutral setting with a counselor type person mediating, and dos and don’ts to make life less miserable for everyone. But that may not happen either, because if people were able to rationally discuss things, maybe they wouldn’t have gotten divorced in the first place.
Hey spider woman,
I have done that before too. I have answered my own question to. Weird huh.
Exp. Self: Hey what is my favorite color?
Self: Blue
Self: What is the favorite food?
Self: Lasangna no lobster no steak
Self: You are pathetic sucker you can't even answer your question that you should know.
Man, why did I just type all that I must being tired TGIF!
Wildest Bill
As to your last post, I don’t get your point.
As to the OP, I believe pre-marital counseling is a great idea. If the couple involved feels they need it. My wife and I have been involved in a number of Pre-Cana sessions and I think it really helps alot of the young couples sort some things out. You could certainly tell which couples wanted to be there and which ones were there because it was required to be married in the church (those would be interesting followup statistics).
Through my experience I have found that those couples that have remained active in the community (be it church, town, social organizations) are the ones that have thrived.
You want to reduce the divorce rate? I think some of the following ideas may help:
Increase coverage of therapy and mental health counseling in insurance plans. I have witnessed so many of the people I work with fall into despair just because they feel they have no place to turn and no one to talk to. We instituted an Employee Assistance Program over two years ago that has helped. However the maximum sessions are set at four and often that isn’t enough. A step in th right direction but we need to go further.
Quality and affordable day care. Face it, money and children are where much of the communication in mariage breaks down. Many families need two incomes, but the stress that the lack of quality day care options cause is huge.
I was fortunate to celebrate my 15th anniversery with my wife last month. She is the most forgiving and understanding person I know. I don’t know the pain that many of you have felt. I do believe that reducing some of the stress couples feel, providing outlets to discuss frustrations and having supportive people around you helps keep things together. (And no, I don’t believe that every marriage should stay together.)
I don’t know how you pay for this or how you implement it. The best focus for us is to stay involved with many of our younger friends and co-workers and be available as a point of support if needed.
pldennison wrote:
They don’t.
You don’t need to get married to commit to each other.
**WB wrote:
If there are any divorces, than yes I would say it is a problem. Especially when there are children involved.**
boggle Okay. I want to hear the logic behind this. Why are you so adamant about people getting a divorce? We’ve been shown that the 50% divorce rate is a bogus figure. You’ve still not shown that divorce is a problem in this country. You’ve asserted a hypothesis, can you back it up with some facts or statistics that show it or at least point in that direction? Is there really a problem with too many divorces or is this simply a personal axe you have to grind. Is this really any of your business?
**pldennison wrote:
Um, you know, some people don’t get married in a church at all, or get religion involved in their marriage in any way, so we can nix that idea immediately. It would be a clear church/state violation to require people to do this.**
Sorry, I should have clarified. I’d not like to see this codified into law, but simply be a practice that encouraged. For an example, martital counselling before the ceremony in religious institution, but there’d be nothing to stop a couple from appearing before a magistrate or J/P and getting a civil union.
If it were done at the high school level, it’d be part of a set of courses on basic living techniques, suggestions for living with someone along with stuff like check-book balancing, basic car repair and how to cook a meal. That sort of thing.
Call me crazy, but most people that I know have been married in the Catholic church. from what I understand, they engaged couple needs to take classes offered by the church before they can get married.
Yes I know there are those out there of another faith, and it would be interesting to hear if their faith had the same requirements.
I will use an admittedly unrealistic analogy to make a point here.
Say our society was possibly facing a dilemma because people were not wiping their asses after they shat. Imagine something that isn’t too laughable here - Maybe a health hazard or something.
I italicized possible above because there is even a debate that this really is that huge of a problem.
In this case, were it to come to fore, I would reject any and all attempts of the government to wipe my ass for me.
Encourage people to wipe their own asses? Sure! Offer help to those who want assistance with ass-wiping? Why not?
But barge into my bathroom and forcibly wipe my ass when I feel that I am doing a fine job myself? Fuck no.
Yer pal,
Satan - Commissioner, The Teeming Minions
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Five months, four weeks, 2 hours, 20 minutes and 21 seconds.
7243 cigarettes not smoked, saving $905.49.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 4 days, 3 hours, 35 minutes.
Pre-wedding counseling to ensure compatibility, huh? Sure, I’m all for it. But a one-time counseling session before the wedding is way too little, in my book. Marriages are supposed to last a lifetime, right? I think it’d be far better if you also were required to check back in with your counselor every five years or so after the wedding. (Make it your anniversary plans, even; counseling, dinner, and a play sounds like a nice way to celebrate.) After all, there are probably a ton of issues that pop up only after two people are married. If you restrict the counseling to the time before a couple marries, then those issues will likely never get addressed.
If you think about it, the post-wedding counseling is an even better idea than the pre-wedding counseling. People will change over the course of their lives. There’s no way the nature of such changes can be predicted before people wed. Getting counseling every few years, and addressing these changes as they unfold, is the best way to tackle them and get through them with the marriage intact.
click Sarcasm’s off now.
I admire your efforts in thinking up ways to decrease divorce, Wildest Bill. However, my personal feeling is this: If you have marriages, then you will have divorces. No amount of preparation will guarantee success.
However, there are a billion reasons why people divorce, and I think you’d get the results you want if you addressed these reasons individually. Did this couple divorce because she was cheating on him? Or was it because he was embezzling money from his employer? Whatever the reason is, then take on that reason. Debate whether infidelity or theft is a divorce-worthy infraction, and then either accept or condemn that reason as a valid reason for divorce. Don’t just attack divorce. Divorce is the consequence of something, not the crime itself.
I’m all in favor… but most of us had to start with a learner’s permit graduating to a daylight only permit and then on to a full bore license. Here where I live we still have to go back every four years and re-qualify/retest.
I made it through three re-qualifications before I finally got wise to it and purposely wrecked.
The main reason why people get divorced is because they are just tired of being married and bored with the whole thing. Counselling won’t help. If the divorce rate is going down it’s because fewer people get married anymore. They have never contrasted divorce filings with paternity filings. In my opinion paternity filings are as much on the rise as divorces are on the fall. People stay together for a shorter and shorter period of time. 6 months is now considered a long-term relationship and by then there is usually a kid on the way. Couples break up in about 18 months so there isn’t time to decide to marry and plan a marriage.
I’m just going to clarify some things first.
This is not so. You don’t have to take a class before getting your license. In fact, you could skim the book on your own free time, hop in the car and take the test and pass. Many have done it and have never been in wrecks. If there are people who can do that, why should they have to pay to have some one teach them things they already know? This is why legislated premarital classes won’t work–not everybody needs them.
Actually, he does have a child. Just fighting ignorance.
Also, Wildest Bill, in order to clear some things up, could you give us a detailed description of the topics you think should be put into this law? I just want to get a better feeling for what kind of things you would like these classes to teach us.
Charles Manson does have a child?
Eek, that’s friggin scary!
Numbers and breaks added by me
I’d like to see a cite for each of these assertions, please. Thank you.
Wildest Bill: In your last utterly misguided divorce thread, I pointed out to you (and I can get the necessary cites when needed) that the divorce rate is highest and grwoing the fastest among Bible-belt Christians, who are probably the most likely to have attended pre-marital counseling. Doesn’t that throw a monkey wrench into your premise?
Mea culpa!!! That last post was from me, not from my wife. Stupid preferences!!