I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long)

Stoid, I went back through the thread looking for a snippet of one of your posts to comment on but now can’t find it. Please forgive my blind approximation of your words?

I noticed in one of your posts that you mentioned how hard weight loss is for you, and how frustrating you feel when people say “but it’s so simple!”

I also noticed a spot where you mentioned that you sometimes feel obsessed with thoughts of food, and that it makes you happy to enjoy a good meal.

I think that what you’re trying to do is a completely different thing than calories in vs. calories out. You’re trying to change your relationship to food and that is MUCH harder than “simple” dieting. It may be true that reducing calories and increasing activity really is simple for many people, but again, that’s really not what you’re doing.

I’ll say that again: you’re right, it is harder for you, because the emotional deck is stacked against you.

For someone who has a healthy relationship with food, reducing is not a big deal. I think what I read in your posts is you trying to explain that weight loss isn’t simple for you because you’re not one of those people.

It might be helpful to move your focus away from calories and scales and toward resolving the emotions that surround eating for you. If you start there you might find yourself becoming more comfortable with eating less rather that just white knuckling it every day for the sake of a lost pound.

Of course none of this may ring true for you, these are just my own thoughts and opinions as a person who lived with and through disordered eating and found a way to get healthy rather than a way to lose weight. It took years to get my head right about food, but the changes were permanent.

You can do this.

I have a friend with a weight problem and this same attitude, and I gotta say, I think it’s a huge, huge mistake.

There’s nothing about surgery that appeals to me, either, but if it will save your life, you do it.

Thank you for your input, and I appreciate what you’re saying. I’ve had boatloads of therapy, most of it very helpful. I have conquered a great deal of the emotional eating issues. That’s what compulsive eating is about, after all, and I am not a compulsive overeater any longer.

What remains of what was once a compulsion and an obsession is food preferences that cannot be trained or willed away (I know, I’ve tried) and the fact that I find food (that I like, obviously) enormously pleasurable. So do lots, if not most people, so trying to make that go away is likely to be a fool’s quest. Add in poor impulse control (all impulses, not just food impulses- that’s the ADD) and a nearly non-existent ability to delay gratification of ANY kind, not just food, and you have my struggle, one that is played out all over my life, in many things that have nothing to do with food.

If I find that I’m facing imminent death from something that losing weight will undo and I am unable to overcome it, I might consider it. But that’s not my situation. Being obese is not, in and of itself, automatically a fatal condition. If it were, more obese people would be dying even younger and more often than they do. (Aretha Franklin and John Goodman would have been long gone by now, just to name two.)

I have pretty decent blood chemistry and blood pressure, I have never had anything that looks like diabetes or pre-diabetes.

So I’m not going to be having my guts rewired any time in the foreseeable future.

We are all so different, in my case I had a problem in that my sedentary life was far below the usual definition of sedentary, an accident had left me pretty close to immobile for a long time. While I had got a bit more active i was slow and in pain so although I was carrying a lot of weight I didn’t have the strength to carry it far. I had very little muscle. For me to lose weight I had to start the exercise first and get my body some muscle that meant it burned more calories.

I started with a wii fit for a few minutes a day and as I got stronger I gradually did more and more and then slowly altered the food. I ended up losing a lot over the next two years without feeling a lot of deprivation foodwise. It is such a personal journey, my partner has not found the same benefits of exercise and is very frustrated at a smaller loss than mine, the fact is my body runs much faster than hers but it was me that made it happen, for some reason I will never understand weight training, in particular, just suits me, be it the years of disability and the contrast of feeling strong or just a sensitivity to endorphins - I don’t know, I am just glad I found my answer and hope all others looking for it find theirs, including my partner.

As for finding the time to exercise, lowering my fat intake shaved an hour off my sleep a night naturally. I use that for moving about. My partner sleeps the same time she always has despite the dietary changes. I am sure we all have an answer but I really think it can be truly hard to work out what that is and I know that my success is hard for others to take sometimes. Hell, one friend had lap band surgery around the time I started my journey and despite an initial loss, over the two years since she has gained it back and added more while I have consistently dropped. It is unfair as hell. It is not hard for me to exercise daily or eat better. I am still losing though there is nothing deliberate about it, I am just living a life I enjoy much more than my old one.

I hope you find your answer

I’m sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

Let’s be real here:

By your own admission, for your entire adult life you have been terribly overweight, and for much of it morbidly obese. You have struggled with diets and yo-yo’ed up and down, but overall for 30+ years you have been unable to achieve anywhere near a healthy weight.

So I think it’s fair to say that you are a failure at any sort of weight, health or diet control.

And yet after one month of dieting you are willing to make absolute statements “about obesity and diet” (your thread title). After 30+ years.

I know you will probably ignore this, but if you really care about your weight, health and diet you should admit that you are, by all empirical evidence, completely ignorant of all things related to healthy dieting, and actually embrace some of the friggin advice you are given!

So…danger of imminent death is the only thing that’s going to motivate you to drastic action? Look, you may not have serious health issues related to your weight, but no doubt you have some. It stresses your entire body, and if I recall correctly, you’re having trouble with your knees, for one thing. You’re only in your 50s…those knees may have to carry you around for 40 more years, if you’re lucky and your overall health continues to be good.

I accept that it’s very, very, difficult for you to lose weight. You’ve been yo yo dieting for 30 years. It’s not going to change on its own. If you can’t do anything about it…and your OP is an explanation as to why…they why on earth wouldn’t you be willing to try a different approach that might help you?

And see this link that rips apart most of the China Study, or this debate(PDF) where Campbell basically resorts to saying, “I have more academic qualifications than you, so I win.” Which means that he can’t beat Cordain on facts and has to resort to ad hominems instead. He cherry-picked cases from the study that supported the message he wanted to send. The study itself doesn’t support his conclusions.

Googled it. Might pick it up from the library (if I can find it here) and see for myself, but from what I read in a few in-depth reviews, I’m not impressed. He apparently proposes an extremely strict diet, which makes it unlikely to be sustainable.

A few of the reviews said that the book was poorly cited also. Why don’t you check out the two books I recommended? There’s over 20 pages of bibliography in the Paleo Diet (which I have at home) and I remember a huge chunk of citations in the back of Good Calories, Bad Calories, to the point where I was actually finished reading the book before I realized that the last “chapter” was densely-printed endnotes and works cited. Oddly enough, neither one of those books seems to have the same views Fuhrman does.

I’m not even going to get deep into the wrong-headedness of the pro-vegan bias that every single review mentioned. Suffice it to say that hominids have been top-level carnivores since before we branched off and became recognizably Homo sapiens. Humans have never been anything close to vegans. A vegetarian lifestyle is not particularly sustainable without access to modern industrial processing of foodstuffs from half a planet worth of plant species.

You’re right, it doesn’t. But it does beg the question, which time were they full of shit? During the decade and a half when they were crowing about how soy was the food of the gods, or when they wrote a retraction of virtually every single health benefit they ever claimed for it?

Even an abstract of an article that really, really wants to like soy (the title is “Nutritional and Health Benefits of Soy Proteins”) has fun little pieces like, “Adverse nutritional and other effects following consumption of raw soybean meal have been attributed to the presence of endogenous inhibitors of digestive enzymes and lectins and to poor digestibility,” and, “Most commercially heated meals retain up to 20% of the Bowman−Birk (BBI) inhibitor of chymotrypsin and trypsin and the Kunitz inhibitor of trypsin (KTI).” This is in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, which means it’s part of the big agribusiness combine that mainly wants to sell you “food products” and has next to no interest in making people healthy. The thrust of the article is, “how do we process this stuff so that people don’t get sick from eating it?”

The problem with that is that cuisines are not individual foods. Some foods need to be eaten in combination with other foods to provide health benefits. Case in point, tofu is consumed in small quantities, often in combination with seaweed and fish broth. The combination offsets the high phytic acid load that would otherwise inhibit mineral absorption, and provides iodine to offset the goitrogenic effects. They don’t wolf down a 500 g tofu steak with pasta and a cake chaser like many Westerners do.

This synthesis of food effects is almost certainly the reason for the “paradoxes” in nutrition studies, like the “French paradox.” They eat a lot of fat, but aren’t fat, and have fewer heart and artery problems than North Americans who eat a high fat diet. There isn’t a paradox. It’s not just how much total fat, it’s what fats in what proportions, in combination with what other foods, eaten in what style, with what condiments and style of preparation, in what kind of social environment?

Also note that soy products are heavily fermented in Asia, which helps reduce the phytic acid levels and break down some of the lectins. They don’t eat the stuff raw. You can’t eat it raw; you’d get sick. Until they figured out good ways to ferment it, the Chinese considered soybeans to be food that was only fit for pigs. (Mmm, pork!)

Now in the West, of course, we try to figure out what kind of chemical processes we can use to make the stuff palatable. With mixed results. (Oops, it still tastes crappy and it irritates the gut lining, making you miserable and provoking immune responses to the inflammation. Back to the chem lab! We must be able to find a way to sell this crap as something other than pig feed.)

If you want to eat like an Okinawan, better be prepared to eat a lot less too. They eat far fewer calories than even the Japanese do. Calorie restriction has effects on longevity as well. How much of the longevity boost is due to eating about 800 calories less than the average American?

And lifestyles have even more to do with health than just diet. Okinawa still has a lot of little close-knit neighborhoods. People who are connected with the community, and who get out and visit other people, are much more likely to live for a long time.

Or, it could have something to do with the fact that long-lived Okinawans actually eat more meat than the people selling the Okinawan Diet would have you believe. I’ve eaten traditional cuisine in Okinawa, and I’ve got to tell you, the truth is closer to this than this. The latter is bullshit packaged in all the misguided preconceptions the high-carb, low-fat crowd has used to make people fat and unhealthy over the last 30 years. The former features recipes for Okinawan cuisine (Hint: they eat a lot of pork. In fact, this site claims that the reason they live so long is because they eat everything but the squeal and the hooves.)

But you don’t need to cook chicken or pork or seafood to eat it. Believe me, given that I’ve lived in Japan for a decade, I’ve eaten almost anything you can imagine (and a few things most people probably wouldn’t want to) raw. I’ve had raw pheasant, sea cucumber, shellfish, fish of all types, wild boar, venison, beef, and rabbit, and probably some things I can’t even remember.

You don’t need to process meat or organs with chemicals or heat to be able to eat them. The only health concerns are parasites and bacterial contamination. Some plants, like grains and legumes, cause at the very best acute intestinal distress without proper preparation.

I’ve come to the conclusion that everyone with a “nutrition/diet plan” has a study to back them up, and another to rip apart all the other ones. Just sayin’ . . .

I shouldn’t have phrased that as an absolute; however, people who grew up with undiagnosed ADD are usually subjected to negative messages, as are people who are overweight. This is a major contributor to depression, it would be a rare person who was able to not internalize these messages.

It’s common to find depression to co-exist with ADD - the first time I tried to get an official diagnosis, I tested too strongly for depression and the doctor said I couldn’t get an ADD diagnosis until the depression was treated. She admitted that depression was a common result of dealing with untreated ADD.

One of the reasons it took so long for the medical community to recognize adult ADD is that the people who didn’t learn effective coping mechanisms by the time they reached adulthood usually developed more severe (or obvious) problems such as alchoholism, drug addiction, and other self-destructive behaviors.

Because, while it does bother me, it does not bother me sufficiently to make the tradeoffs and risks worth it, not even close.

Especially since, as I said in the OP, I do not WANT to be slim. Seriously. If I could be slim and have my skin regrow nice and snug, or even not sickeningly saggy, I might be encouraged to seek genuine normal weight. But that’s not going to happen, so getting below 200 (or even higher than that perhaps), will result in really hideous, physically unpleasant and uncomfortable drapes of aged, stretched flesh that will never rebound on its own. And that goes DOUBLE for skin after bypass, which causes such fast weightloss that the skin has zero opportunity to tighten up at a slower pace through healthy living. (Bypass is just mechanically imposed starvation dieting, after all, and starvation dieting is a bitch on the body, and very much on the skin. Especially fast. Especially at my age.)

And the only solution to that nasty situation, apart from just living with it (and the reality of that is just a little too disgusting and TMI to dwell on, use your imagination) is incredibly painful, dangerous, massive, scarring expensive and ugly plastic surgery wherein huge swaths of skin are hacked away, leaving massive wounds to be stiched up by hundreds and hundreds of stiches…all of which is just a festival for terrifying infections and death.

So yeah, the idea of bypass completely mortifies me. Can’t think of a thing about it I want.

Knowing and doing bear little relationship to one another. Check out the the fat dieticians in hospitals sometime.

All true, definitely, and I’ve certainly done battle with my share of issues, no question. And much of my negative self-image was about internalized messages around both my weight and the host of issues that I now recognize as ADD.

But I am a blessed person… while I have boatloads of excellent reasons right this very minute to be curled up in a corner sucking my thumb, I’m just not so inclined. I was a depressed kid, but I’m not a depressed adult. There are moments, but as I say, I have plenty of very real reasons to have down days, my life is extraordinarily difficult and painful in many ways. But…nah. Not worth it. Life’s too short.

BTW, speaking of snug skin… has anyone seen theSkin Gun? Amazing. I predict it will bring a revolution in plastic surgery down the line…cut away the saggy bits, spray the wound with skin stem cells, and voila! Perfectly fresh and delightful new skin.

I saw a Discovery channel program about a woman who survived an allergic reaction that caused all the skin on her body to slough off completely. She was considered a miracle, and the doctors expected her to have the appearance of a burn victim when she was healed. But instead, she had brand new skin, completely flawless, like a baby. Her dermatologist told her she had to stay out of the sun for the first year because the skin was so delicate, but that when her peers were wrinkling up she would look 10-20 years younger.

I’ve never forgotten that story, it made a huge impact on me. I’ve often wished there were some way to accomplish that without the nearly fatal agony she had to endure to get that result. I think the skin gun is going to come close. If it existed now my motivation to take the weight off and get a new suit of skin would be through the roof.

I have come to the exact same conclusion.

Plus, we all know what the “perfect” human looks like - minimal body fat, nothing wrong with the major organs. But how many people do you know like that? By the time you’re an adult, chances are that you don’t know many. I have yet to meet someone like that. I, on the other hand, have a seizure disorder and high cholesterol. My son used to have breathing problems. My mom has depression. My sister has fertility problems. My dad has diabetes, high cholesterol and hypertension. My best friend has a form of arthritis at 34. My other friend has fertility problems. A co-worker, despite working out every single day, has cardiovascular disease, and on and on. In my experience, whether it’s an issue of nature (i.e., bodily makeup) or the environment (things like overeating, injury, etc.) or a combination, most people’s bodies don’t work like they “should.” So it makes sense that weight loss isn’t a one-size-fits-all thing when what you eat can affect your body’s makeup and the way it works.

I look at weight loss like I look at parenting: just because something worked for you doesn’t mean it’ll work for everyone. Take the advice you get, try it if you want, toss it if it doesn’t work and try something else 'til you find something that gets the results you need in a healthy, sane manner.

My body looks like a shar-pei but if you think there are more problems with that than with the fat you are very mistaken. I had far more trouble when the sacks were full than now they are empty though it was a different form of trouble. I hear this so often but seriously, I understand the fear of the saggy stuff but the reality is that fat is a hell of a lot harder than having skin that doesn’t fit. I think it looks awful too but then, being morbidly obese is not particularly attractive to most people either.

I have lost over 60kg/132lb

I blogged a bit at http://thylacineclone.posterous.com/

And BTW… just a reminder about the point of the thread, which has turned into a nice cornucopia of tips and ideas and information, and that’s great, but it was not “Oh dear, I have no clue how to lose weight!” Or “it’s impossible to lose weight!” Or “Everything I try fails!”

The point was directed at the contingent of people who:
[ul]
[li]Assume obese people are pigs[/li][li]Insist that losing weight is simple, and that fat people are just self-indulgent whiners[/li][li]Assert that disgust, dismissal, mockery and general disdain directed at fat people is justified because of the foregoing, which are held up as the underlying justifcation for the assertion that fat people choose to be fat, which, again, means it’s ok to treat them like shit.[/li][li]Believe, assert, insist or accuse obese people of lies and self-delusion when they say that they are really not eating that much.[/li][/ul]

And variations on the general themes, whether viciously spat out in unequivocally cruel ways, or couched in purportedly more “helpful” terms.

I made a very committed effort to be rigorous in recording everything, and the results were what I expected: losing weight for me, middle aged lifelong obese person that I am, is very difficult because it doesn’t take very much food for me to simply maintain my obesity to begin with. Because if I’m not losing at 1388 per day, it’s a pretty easy to see that if I were scarfing down 3000 or 4000 calries a day I’d probably be piling on a few pounds a week. (I’ve been known to accomplish exactly that in my life, but only in short bursts- most recently after weathering an obsession with Haagen Dazs Chocolate Peanut Butter Ice Cream - which I’m somewhat relieved to report is now being suffered by my best friend, who is my age, a steady 126 pounds, and is eating exactly as much as I ate and is exactly as obsessed as I was, finding excuses to go to the store so she can get some. This is relieving because she simply doesn’t behave that way, ever, so I know it’s the ice cream itself, not just me. That stuff is SICK. )

And I now know it for certain, it’s not just that I’m “pretty sure” but potentially kidding myself. I tracked, I measured, I weighed, I recorded. I know for sure.

For the next time a thread comes up and those assertions starting getting thrown around.

To each his own, certainly. I will be happy with a middle ground between the severe obesity I have now and being a healthy weight shar pei.

Just be aware that I was saggier at my original goal weight of 100kg than I am now, time has made a difference - I get it, I was up over 140kg (a low guesstimate as my scales couldn’t measure me) and found that easily maintainable on low calories due to my long term lack of activity. I wish you well and hope you find your way out if that is what you want.

To be fair, you didn’t lose for the short period of time that you logged your results - and neither did you gain. I suspect that if you maintained that caloric intake (actually, I bet you could go quite a bit higher, although again this is only a suspicion) for a much longer period of time, you’d see results. Particularly if combined with a regular exercise program.

I am basing this pretty much solely on my personal experience of carefully logging caloric intake/expenditure and not seeing any real results for the first month-ish, although as I said before, I had started a new fitness program at the same time, so that obviously may have been influencing my results.