I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
161

Way to get lost in the details. Try to make something simple and everyone wants to nitpick you to death.

You know, you could read the FAQ I mentioned earlier, or even <gasp> the books. What the Paleo Diet is trying to do is not slavishly copy exactly what hunter-gatherers eat, it’s using the ancestral diet as a starting point for figuring out optimal eating strategies using modern foods to emulate it. Besides eating a decent amount of meat, Cordain recommends a large amount of vegetables; just not grains or legumes due to gut health issues, associated autoimmune response, and problems with nutrient absorption.

Look, I’m tired of trying to summarize upwards of 600—700 pages in those two books combined, plus the other reading and research I’ve done myself independently over the last 6 years or so. Why don’t you guys read the books? Yes, they’re not following the mainstream party line. That’s the point. One more book about how veganism is healthy or how you can lose weight (and enrichen the author, who conveniently sells supplements, their line of “optimal” pre-packaged foods, and support for when you inevitably fail at following the diet) is not helpful. That’s the advice that people have been given for years, and that has evidently fucked them over. Why not look at something different? Evaluate the evidence yourself. Don’t take my word for it.

Exactly. We know what doesn’t work: the standard American diet. If it worked, close to 30% of Americans wouldn’t be fat, and there wouldn’t be record numbers of people with food allergies, food related illnesses, and endocrine disorders. If it’s so bloody hard for people (including the experts themselves) to be healthy by following the recommendations they give, maybe it’s not the people’s fault, maybe it’s because the recommendations are wrong.

Something I didn’t mention earlier in the Okinawa/Japan diet stuff is that I’m one of 3 or 4 people who come out with a decent bill of health in my office when we do the yearly exams. There are about 70 people, some of whom are younger than me so it’s not just age-related decline. If the Japanese diet was so healthy, I would be the one who has a C or D rating, instead of the roughly 50% of my co-workers who have several health interventions recommended.

The few things I get flagged for are indicators that are out of the norm for the Japanese population. For example, my blood creatinine levels are higher than Japanese standards, but well within norms for the US; they’re higher because I have more muscle mass. My BMI is higher than Japanese recommendations, but Asian populations have to adjust the values due to a tendency to put on intra-abdominal fat and have lower bone density and muscle mass. My red blood cell count is higher, again because I work out.

Several years ago, when I was eating much more Japanese food, less protein, and less healthy fat, I was 40 lbs. heavier, had the beginnings of hypertension from all the salt in the diet, had lost a bunch of muscle, and looked and felt like shit. When I started working out again, I tweaked my diet so I was eating more like I did when I was a high school athlete, and refined my dietary choices over time as I learned more about what worked.

I don’t weigh and measure, I don’t have to put a whole lot of thought into what to eat other than some relatively simple guidelines, I eat a good amount of food so I never feel deprived, and I get to eat some pretty darn delicious meals. I eat a lot of salads, steamed and sauteed vegetables, meats, fish, shellfish, limited amounts of nuts, and fruits. Eating this way, I lost a lot of fat, gained a lot of muscle, don’t have to obsess about what I eat, and I’ve maintained a healthy weight for over 4 or 5 years. Hell, I’ve had several people in my office ask me for diet advice since I’m so obviously healthy.

It’s not because I’m special (I’m decidedly average) or have self control (I eat pretty much whatever I want, including occasional sweets if I feel like it) or good genes (if that were true, I wouldn’t have gotten fat in the first place) it’s because I learned what are good, effective food choices and eating strategies. I eat that way most of the time, so if I have some things that aren’t particularly good for me some of the time, I still have good habits and a base of health to support me.

162

You’re making a big assumption there that people follow the standard American diet recommendations. I lost my 40 following a diet very similar to the recommendations.

I do agree that the recommendations should be looked at, with perhaps a slight de-emphasis on carbs, but I honestly don’t think most of the obese 30% got there by following the 2000/2500 calorie, 50% carbs recommendations.

163

Way to ignore the rest of my post.

I believe that it’s very hard for some people to lose weight, and that everyone who is fat has tried to lose weight and failed, or succeeded only to gain it back. I also believe that every single person who is fat is capable of getting thin. That doesn’t mean I think fat people are weak, self-indulgent, slothful, or any other dismissive adjective. I just think it’s possible. And saying that it’s possible is not being dismissive.

164

Another thing that you might want to mention, Sleel, is that Paleo/Primal suggests grass-fed meats, wild-caught fish, and wild game as much as possible. We only buy 100% grass-fed beef, wild-caught fish, and pastured pork for home use. Fat is not the enemy, but the wrong kind of fat can be harmful.

165

No, it’s not. But you were kinda ignoring MY post, which was explaining the whole point of my share, which is directed at those people.

And now we oughta be done.

166

This is neither here nor there; just an anecdote. I used to live and die by the calorie in/calorie out theory. Sure, just burn more than you take in; easy peasy. Then…I met my current housemate. He’s maybe 5’5" and weighs 140, if that. The guy eats easily 2-3000 calories a day (most of it in the form of pizza, bacon, eggs, donuts and cookies) and does NOT gain weight. He can even weigh himself, clothed, at the end of the day, after eating all of that crap and hasn’t gained an ounce. If I ate like he does, day in, day out…I’d pack on 20 pounds in a couple of weeks. AND he’s sixty! He has the body of a teenaged boy. Plus, he gets ZERO exercise. I don’t get it and it pisses me off! :slight_smile: Damned genetics I guess…but it goes against anything I’ve ever read or heard! By all accounts, he should be vastly overweight. Any ideas?

167

If he weighs himself at the beginning of the day, then consumes a large quantity of food, and weighs himself later (without using the toilet first) and has gained nothing…that’s physically impossible. Unless he is sweating large chunks of bacon or something. Food is not weightless.

168

Good point. You’re right, I didn’t mention it earlier. I alluded to it with the omega 3 to 6 ratios, but didn’t spell it out the way I probably should have.

169

I’m the same way. I used to eat massive amounts of nearly 100% junk, didn’t get a quarter of the activity I do now, and I was even thinner (I’m still too thin). It’s more common in the young, but some people just don’t carry carry much weight, ever, and can even eat prodigious amounts. Us skinny people don’t get off scott free from the risks of a poor diet and being sedentary, though… I know plenty perpetually thin people who have had heart attacks, have heart disease and/or diabetes.

But my weight does fluctuate by about 3-4 lbs depending on the volume of food and liquid I’ve taken in.

170

Ummmm, waitaminute. The whole premise of this thread is that counting calories does not work to lose weight based on your own personal results for one month. But somehow this guy’s personal results over decades don’t prove anything. :dubious:

171

The links go to different size portions, but my calorie comparison is 3 oz vs 3 oz.

172

Then he’s probably going to the bathroom in the morning and throughout the day, like most people.

173

Yes, especially counting (eh) the fact that one liter of regular Coke already brings something like 100g.

174

I believe in the whole calorie in/calorie out thing, but I think the people who hammer on it exclusively miss one point… how do you keep that balance shifted sufficiently toward the negative without getting hungry as a motherfucker? THAT is the devil of the whole calorie balance issue.

Part of it must be eating better quality calories, but I think a big part of that also has to be biochemical. If you have a hormonal system that floods your body with hunger signals the minute it detects the most minor caloric deficit, and then fails to send satiety signals the minute the deficit is corrected… that hysteresis is a formula for spending a lot of time hungry to achieve the negative calorie balance. I don’t know the solution but it needs to be recognized when pontificating about calorie balance.

175

I think I used too much “I” in my post. My point was that if someone actually directs the words “weak,” “self-indulgent,” or “slothful” at you, well that person may well be an asshole. If someone says, “look, there has to be some level on consumption combined with some amount of exercise that will work for you,” that’s not the same thing. Yet, when I read these weight loss threads, everyone who says, “you can do it” gets lumped into the same box of people who sneer at fat people. Which, I call bullshit on.

176

Which will have you feeling fuller, longer? An Apple (1 cup, 65 calories), or a ‘Fun Sized’ Snickers bar (99 calories)?

There’s also the tendency to wait too long between meals.

But all of that is incidental to how a person tends to eat, how healthy they are (how’s yer thyroid?), what their metabolism is like, what society says they oughta do, the psychological factors that make them who they are, their starting point, injury, religious needs, do they like sweet or savory, do they cook for themselves, do they have enough money to spend on quality food, are they employed? In a job that gives them time to devote to eating well? Do they LIKE healthy food?

and what’s the ratio of calories eaten to calories burned*. So, it’s SIMPLE! But it’s NOT! Buy my book!

*=YMMV

177

Bulk. Things that are fairly low calorie, but fairly high in volume will make most people more satisfied than things that are calorie dense. That’s why a lot of successful dieters become popcorn (airpop without butter) addicts. Fiber fills you up - anorexics sometimes drink metamucil - fills you up but has very few calories (but - as it says on its container - NOT A DIET AID). And its why dieters are encouraged to drink a lot of water. Its why if you can switch to whole grains you tend to have more luck than if you stick to white bread.

178

This is the opposite of true for me personally (I know you weren’t making a blanket statement with ‘most people’). I need fat and protein to feel satiated, and it doesn’t take that much - bulky, fibrous foods I can eat until my stomach is distended, never really feel satisfied, and be starving an hour later.

179

This is a good point, and IME, the solution isn’t just changing what you eat, it’s getting used to being hungry. I think people who struggle with eating don’t realize that being hungry is just kind of a part of life for most people. I never realized how many psychological issues I had around the fear of being hungry until, as part of a weight-loss plan, I had to do a ‘‘hunger tolerance’’ exercise specifically designed to get over this belief that somehow we should never be hungry and being hungry for a couple of hours is the end of the world. Apparently, thin people get hungry too - they just don’t eat until their next planned meal.

Again, IME and IMO, the hunger is at its most severe in the beginning, either because your stomach shrinks or because you just tolerate hunger better than before. I recognize that everybody is different, but I also seriously doubt that many people who believe restricting calories doesn’t work for them actually sustained a calorie-restricted diet for long enough to get used to it. Just because in the first two months you’re obsessed with calorie-counting and starving all the time doesn’t mean that it will be that way forever.

180

I think the other thing that goes overlooked is that people obsessively avoid feeling hungry. A little bit of peckish isn’t that bad, and doesn’t lead to gorging to satiate the feeling. I’m a savory kinda guy and while I was dieting, the day would consist of:

An egg, with some cheese and protien (a piece of bacon, or a sausage), an apple at 10am, a sandwich at lunch…some kind of snack at3 or 4 pm, and Dinner…I didn’t really count the calories for dinner either.

The Egg, cheese and protien was about 400 calories, the morning snack was 100, the sandwich was another 300 calories or so, and another 100-150 for the afternoon snack. Exchanging water for milk, soda, liquor, etc.

That’s about 1000 calories there…leaving another 1000 calories for dinner, easy.

What was putting on weight was eating similar foods, plus soda/milk/liquor, and dessert, and all the amounts were roughly doubled.

ETA: Sounds like the Dope subconscious is working well…