I Violate my Principles for a Job

[The_Asbestos_Mango]

@Algernon

No. I can vouch that your experience is not unique. It’s not even uncommon.

I have heard about these rumored companies where they fire people at will, but I’ve never actually known anyone who has worked at one. OK. I’ll stop with the sarcasm. I don’t doubt those companies exist. But truly, I’ve never known anyone who’s actually been employed at one.

Hi, my name is Loretto (extends paw to shake).

I used to work in the casino industry. My last dealing job, after nearly a year and a half on the job, with no “precipitating incident” (I love enemployment spead), and without even ever having any disciplinary action taken againse me on the job (compared to most of my coworkers, I was a model employee), my supervisor called me up (he did it over the phone to save me the trip in to work) and told me he had to let me go. No explanation, he just came in to work that morning and found a note on the podium ordering him to fire me. No, he didn’t know why. No, he wasn’t happy about it. No, he couldn’t think of anything I had done to warrant being fired. If I had done anything wrong, he would have told me.

I was actually the only female craps dealer in the joint at the time, and there was large percentage of the clientele who thought women had no business being within 20 feet at a craps table. I still wonder sometimes…

[Cerri]

@Binarydrone

Understand that I in no way mean to belittle the apparent “Ice” epidemic that you are suffering from in your neck of the woods, but I have to admit that statements like this really scare the crap out of me. They remind me in many ways of the attitudes that people take when discussing things like the Patriot Act or other loosening of controls over the government’s powers to spy on its citizens.

This notion of “I have nothing to hide, so BFD if they want to do it” is rather chilling because, in my view, we are handing over uncomplainingly very hard won liberties.

Well, you’re not the only one it frightens. No matter who I’m talking to, in whatever social situation or discussion, whenever the latest possible infringements on our privacy and civil liberties, there’s always at least one person who comes up with the, “I don’t see anything wrong with it, it shouldn’t be any big deal if you’ve got nothing to hide.”

Wtf…it has nothing to do with what I may or may nor want to hide, it has to do with the fact I don’t see where it’s anyone’s fucking business in the first place!

Hell, why don’t we make it standard practice for society that we’re to live in transparent-walled houses, not be allowed to obstruct viewing through said walls, and the government is allowed to log every keystroke on your computer, keep a catalogue of books you have in your house, and monitor what radio and TV shows you watch? Why not just allow the government to install surveillance cameras in all our homes? If you’ve got nothing to hide, what are you worried about?

Obviously my above statement is hyperbole, but this is still the fear myself and many others have squiggling in the back of our heads every time we hear “Why protest against the latest invasion of your privacy if you’ve got nothing to hide?”

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

@Qadgop the Mercotan

So who here thinks its wrong to require drug tests of commercial airline pilots? School bus drivers? Police officers?

As a matter of fact, where I live they don’t require them of school bus drivers.

And yes, I think it’s wrong. The point being, many other things can affect the performance of, say, airline pilots–such as not getting enough sleep, being hung over, having a bad cold.

I can sure understand that better, though, than testing the people who work at Walmart.

[Bricker]

@Evil Captor

Yes, you are bent over a barrel and are not in a position to do anything about what employers might or might not want to put up your butt as a condition of employment. Libertarian, Crazy Cat Lady and Algernon would say, “Anything at all, it’s the nature of the employee/employer relationship.”

The rest of us think there should be limits.

I’ve peed in a cup myself, but I never thought it was right and never will think it’s right.

No, the rest of us don’t agree. Don’t speak for me, Evil Captor.

[Hyperelastic]

@Libertarian

They should. That’s what no limited liability means.

Right, I’ll be willing to give the rest of the libertarian agenda a shot, just as soon as Congress gets around to revising that particular section of corporate law. Definitely staying tuned for that one.

[Binarydrone]

@Bricker

No, the rest of us don’t agree. Don’t speak for me, Evil Captor.

So, I am going to take a wild guess here and say that (given that this is your first post to this thread) Evil Captor was referring to the folks that had actually been contributing to the conversation, and not presuming to speak for the entire human race. I could be wrong, but have a sneaking suspicion that I am right. :rolleyes:

[Bricker]

@Binarydrone

So, I am going to take a wild guess here and say that (given that this is your first post to this thread) Evil Captor was referring to the folks that had actually been contributing to the conversation, and not presuming to speak for the entire human race. I could be wrong, but have a sneaking suspicion that I am right. :rolleyes:

Er… yeah, I’d rather hold on to my righteous indignation, but upon re-reading, I think you’re probably right.

Apologies.

[Binarydrone]

@Bricker

Er… yeah, I’d rather hold on to my righteous indignation, but upon re-reading, I think you’re probably right.

Apologies.

To be fair, I was kind of a dick just then. Apologies right back.

That said, as you seem to hold a view that differs from mine on this issue, I am most interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[bdgr]

HEY!..This is the pit. Knock it off.

[Elza_B]

You know what’s funny? I could have written this post - I just got the exact same awesome job with the same perks (it’s also only a mile from my home, temp-to-perm, etc). And I will have to take a drug test when I’m hired permanently.

But I’ll put aside my principles in order to support myself and my family. I understand how you feel - I truly do. But being employed is more important to me than being able to smoke up once every six months. (I haven’t smoked in almost a year now, so it’s really not a big deal). I don’t really feel that my company has to right to peer into my personal life if it’s not affecting my work, but unfortunately, they don’t agree. And it’s only because they’re such an awesome company that I’ll accept that.

Good luck!

Ava

[Evil_Captor]

@Bricker

No, the rest of us don’t agree. Don’t speak for me, Evil Captor.

Don’t speak for you? I can’t even figure out what you mean when YOU speak for yourself in this very post. What are you saing, that you think there should be no limits to what employers can require of the unemployed who are seeking a job?

[Evil_Captor]

@Binarydrone

So, I am going to take a wild guess here and say that (given that this is your first post to this thread) Evil Captor was referring to the folks that had actually been contributing to the conversation, and not presuming to speak for the entire human race. I could be wrong, but have a sneaking suspicion that I am right. :rolleyes:

It’s not always right to assume rationality on my part, but in this instance …

I reserve the right not to incriminate myself any further …

[Baldwin]

Yow! I’ve been away for the weekend, and had no idea my little rant had started a three-page thread. Interesting set of viewpoints here. (Nice to see that Libertarian remains the colorful cartoon character we all love.)

Addressing some of the points: If a company doesn’t want to hire felons, they have a right to check and see if I’ve ever been arrested (which they’ll be doing). They could even hire a PI if they want to know my habits. But they shouldn’t be allowed to play Junior Detective and demand forensic evidence. If they suspect actual criminal activity, they can call the cops.

Even ignoring the rights aspect – the biggest drug problem in the US is, and always has been, alcohol. Probably leads to more deaths (through car wrecks and disease) than all the illegal drugs combined. I could have been drunk every day of my life before the day I peed in the cup, and every day after. Perfectly legal, and in fact, once I was hired, I could resist being fired for it under ADA. There’s just no logical consistency to attitudes and laws concerning drugs.

But all y’all are doing a fine job arguing the issues – and pretty civilly, too – so I’ll just describe the actual experience.

I went to the testing center on Friday, just a couple of blocks away from my temp job at a hospital. Company called Quest. I found the right office and stepped inside. The second I came through the door, the young man behind the window barked something. (“Barked” is a good description of his characteristic tone of speech.) I didn’t quite make out what he said, but assumed that I had walked into the midst of a conversation. (Basic reception skills involve giving somebody a second to orient themselves before addressing them.) So I walked up to the window and started signing in on the clipboard. The young man barked, “Hello! I said hello!” Here’s a rough approximation of our subsequent discourse.

Me: Oh, sorry. Hello. I’m here for a drug test, for Company XYZ.

Angry Young Man: Whaddya mean!

Me: I have to have a drug test done before I start my new job with Company XYZ. They sent me here.

AYM: [Walking away, in fact disappearing around a corner.] [Unintelligible!] [I thought it might me, “Take a seat”, so I sat down. A moment later he appeared again, looking very cross.] I said step over here!

I stepped around and was ordered to empty my pockets and put everything in a lockbox. A polite young woman was sitting at a desk doing some paperwork; she and AYM seemed to be the only employees.

AYM: Go in the bathroom and wash your hands using water only! Dry your hands with a paper towel and come back out here!

So I did that, grinding my teeth a bit. Came back out and started filling out the form handed me by AYM. I started to explain that I had been on chemotherapy year before last, and didn’t know if the Interferon or Ribavirin might leave traces, and also that I was diabetic.

AYM: We don’t do the testing! The company will call you if there’s anything abnormal!

There was no place on the form to list prescription drugs, which seemed odd to me.

AYM: Now take a cup! [Indicating box of cups.] Go in the bathroom and urinate in the cup! Don’t flush the toilet or run water!

So I went in. I peed. Now, I don’t know how it is for women, but for men it can be difficult to only pee six ounces. I could have finished in the toilet, but the situation was embarrassing enough without leaving an unflushed toilet of urine behind me. So I cut off my flow, not without some effort, came back out without being able to wash my hands. Humiliating “security” measures – yet it occurred to me that it would have been childishly easy to have substituted somebody else’s urine, had I wished to do so. (Since I don’t use drugs, I didn’t feel the need.)

AYM barked some more things at me while sealing my specimen into a vial and sealing the vial into a bag with my information on it. Then he sent me, like a child, back into the john with some soap to wash my hands. When I came out, he barked a cheery “That’s all!” (Well, not cheery so much as dismissive.)

Me: Work on your customer service skills. (I headed for the door.)

AYM: [Getting up and stalking after me.] What! What did you say!

Me: [Turning around and locking eyes with him.] I said, work on your customer service skills.

AYM: [Laughing. Actually fucking laughing at me. Turned back to bark at Polite Young Woman.] Did you hear what he said! [Turning back to glare at me.] I got good customer service skills! I said hello and he didn’t even answer!

Polite Young Woman had come around to stand between us; we were about ten feet apart. AYM took a step toward me; I started toward him, maintaining eye contact. PYM put a hand on his chest to stop him; looked at me with what seemed to me a pleading, exasperated expression, as if it were not the first time such a scene had been enacted in this office. She said hastily, “We’re sorry, and we’ll work on that.” I nodded to her, said “Thank you” and left.

I’ve recounted this in such detail because those ten minutes were an intense whelter of emotions, not a single one of them good. Frankly, I hoped that describing the episode might help me put it in the past.

I hope this treatment isn’t typical of such clinics. Don’t they understand that the job applicants who come in there are already feeling embarrassed and unhappy about having to be there? All that’s needed is a little consideration.

Tomorrow, my prospective new employer will have the results, and I’m supposed to come over to fill out paperwork and provide ID. If all goes well, I start the job next week. My only worry now is that AYM, jackass that he is, might somehow bollix my test. Is that possible? I saw him seal up the specimen, and I have his signature on my copy of the paperwork, but if the test comes back with a false positive, is there anything I can do?

I’m looking forward to making a decent living again, repaying my girlfriend (who really is an angel) and helping us get into good financial shape. Also, it seems like a nice place to work, and I got a good vibe from my new boss and coworkers. But I’m sure as hell going to keep plugging away at my fiction writing (in which, I assure you, I usually achieve a smoother style than that displayed in this post).

[Liberal]

So, you ride into the place like Jesus on a donkey, and he’s the jackass? I think it’s pretty clear from the fact that you’ve opened a Pit thread announcing how opposed you are to the whole idea that an employer ought to be able to screen for drugs (at least when it’s you they’re hiring) that the Angry Young Man is none other than yourself. Something tells me that the guy at the testing center likely came away with a very different story than the one you tell. Something like this…

So, it was just another day at the testing center. Every once in a while, we get these assholes who come in with a chip on their shoulder, wanting to give us a hard time. They can’t tell the difference between the government and a private company, so they cop an attitude and take out their wrongheaded anger on us because they’re too chicken shit to confront the company that’s hiring them directly.

This guy comes in, and I could tell instantly that he had that look. You know, “I can’t believe I’m being violated in this way and I hold you personally responsible. And when I get done here, I’m going to write a letter to the editor (or post at Straight Dope) and tell everybody what a meany you are.” He had a scowl on his face, and even his first greeting was condescending and indignant.

Me: Hi.

AYM: [Apparently, his seething rage has cut off his hearing.] What?!

Me: Hello? I was just saying hello.

AYM: I’m not here to make friends. I’m here because I’m a victim of a fascist society. Just get on with it.

Me: Um, okay. Could you step over here, please?

AYM: [He ignores me completely, and sits down.]

Me: I need you to come over here, please.

AYM: [He sighs loudly and stomps around the corner.]

I give him the exact same instructions I give everyone else, day after day. There are certain procedures that we have to follow or else the test results could be compromised. I explain that he needs to empty his pockets, and I give him a lockbox for his personals. All the while, he’s in a state of muffled rage as he throws things in the box.

Me: Okay, go in the bathroom and wash your hands using water only. Dry your hands with a paper towel and come back out here.

He gives me a look like I’m the guy who just murdered his child, and he grits his teeth as he goes inside the bathroom. When he comes out, I give him the form that I give every person who comes in, but of course, he thinks we have singled him out for special treatment and he fills it out with grunts and sighs as though I had personally insulted him.

AYM: [unintelligible muttering] I used to have [something or other, something about a disease or something] and I need [some sort of special treatment because, see, I’m special].

So, I have to explain for the umpteenth time that all we do is gather the specimen. We don’t do the testing here. You’d think he would realize this since he could see that I and a lady are the only ones who work here. But I have to listen anyway to his life’s history and how he’s oh so special. I’m surprised he didn’t ask me something stupid like whether they could tell the difference between a prescription drug and, say, cocaine.

Me: Okay, take a cup, go in the bathroom and fill it. Don’t flush the toilet or run any water.

He goes in, does his thing, and brings me the cup. I don’t say anything about how humiliating it is to handle his piss. It’s my job, so I do it. But he’s still got these 1920’s style death ray eyes, obviously blaming me for his failures at home and at work. As I processed his cup, I told him how his test would be conducted and gave him the final instructions. I gave him some soap so he could go in and wash his hands. He grabs it with a huff and disappears again.

When he comes back out, I tell him he’s finished.

Me: Okay, that’s it. You’re done.

AYM: Work on your people skills, dude.

Me: [showing him the way out] Excuse me? What did you say?

AYM: You need to work on your people skills.

Me: [laughing at this jackass with an attitude who’s preaching at me]

I turn to Cherice, my coworker, and laugh.

Me: Did you hear that?

She nods. She has to deal with the same assholes I have to deal with. So this moron who thinks the whole world has conspired against him and that I give a rat’s ass about his crusade against capitalism actually turns to confront me like some badass highschool bully.

Cherice steps in to stop me from unloading on him and apologizes. I’m worried that he’s going to try to hurt her as well, so I maintain my stance just in case. But luckily, he’s smart enough to leave before I pummel his ass.

AYM: [sarcastic voice] Thank you.

When he’s gone, I turn to Cherice and we both laugh.

Cherice: I hope that’s our quota of self-righteous slackers for the day.

Me: [tossing his specimen and paperwork into the bin] Yeah. Me too. I guess we should count our blessings. At least he’s not applying to work here.

Cherice and I laugh and call up the next guy.

Me: Thanks for waiting, and sorry about that scene.

Guy: No problem. He’s probably been a couch potato living off his girlfriend for the last couple of years.

Me: [laughing] Okay, come this way, please.

[BoBettie]

Baldwin-
I’ve had many, many drug tests (I work for hospital systems) and **never ** have had a drug test that wasn’t handled very professionally. I have had regular doctors offices where I’ve had issues with the staff, and I’m thinking that’s what you ran into- there are assholes everywhere, not just the drug testing facility. If you’re mad about that, rant to the office manager where you had the test done, but that has nothing to do with drug testing in and of itself.

[Evil_Captor]

@Zette

Baldwin-
I’ve had many, many drug tests (I work for hospital systems) and **never ** have had a drug test that wasn’t handled very professionally. I have had regular doctors offices where I’ve had issues with the staff, and I’m thinking that’s what you ran into- there are assholes everywhere, not just the drug testing facility. If you’re mad about that, rant to the office manager where you had the test done, but that has nothing to do with drug testing in and of itself.

This is complete bullshit. The facility that collects the pee is just as much a part of the drug testing system as the lab that does the testing. You’ve “had issues with the staff” – sounds like you’re agreeing with Baldwin, not disagreeing.

[Evil_Captor]

@Libertarian

So, you ride into the place like Jesus on a donkey, and he’s the jackass? I think it’s pretty clear from the fact that you’ve opened a Pit thread announcing how opposed you are to the whole idea that an employer ought to be able to screen for drugs (at least when it’s you they’re hiring) that the Angry Young Man is none other than yourself. Something tells me that the guy at the testing center likely came away with a very different story than the one you tell. Something like this…

Nice piece of fiction, but of course has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. When come back, bring argument.

[Bricker]

@Binarydrone

That said, as you seem to hold a view that differs from mine on this issue, I am most interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I certainly agree that there should be some limits on what an employer may require from an employee, grounded in public policy. But I don’t agree that drug testing comes remotely close to those limits.

What are the limits I’d support? In general, I’d say they revolve around areas that society is prepared to rigourously hold off limits. For example, an employer should not make race or gender an employment factor, unless the job requires it. An employer should not be able to require sexual activities from hsi employees, unless the job is clearly of a sexual nature. These are areas which society is prepared to defend as being either irrelevant or inviolate.

• Rick

[Inoshiro]

@Libertarian

So, you ride into the place like Jesus on a donkey, and he’s the jackass? I think it’s pretty clear from the fact that you’ve opened a Pit thread announcing how opposed you are to the whole idea that an employer ought to be able to screen for drugs (at least when it’s you they’re hiring) that the Angry Young Man is none other than yourself. Something tells me that the guy at the testing center likely came away with a very different story than the one you tell. Something like this…

Translation: I can’t really think of anything else to say but my sympathies are still with the companies so I’ll just invent my own apocryphal version of the story.

[Liberal]

@Inoshiro

Translation: I can’t really think of anything else to say but my sympathies are still with the companies so I’ll just invent my own apocryphal version of the story.

Translation: I see no reason to believe that the guy working at the test center is a human being, so I’ll just swallow hook line and sinker the ridiculous caricature of him painted by the OP.