It sounds like they may have both done that. They may not have been perfect, and stood up for every woman being catcalled (but not every woman being catcalled wants a guy to step in), or made lobbying for more sexual harassment education a life priority.
I’m sure there are fine people on both sides of this issue.
Quit being such a skirt.
Hey, if they did stop it’s more than others do! Those who say they did, I believe them.
Young person is a jerk, is told (s)he’s a jerk, understands (s)he’s screwed up and never does that or something similar again: that’s part of growing up. We’ve all been jerks at some point; most of us learned not to.
Person of any age is a jerk, is told that behavior is unacceptable, and continues, perhaps with an additional dose of bullying, laughing, insults, threats? Those are the ones that we need to protect ourselves from, both as individuals and as a society.
Elbows: What is it about Franken’s apology that you feel is inadequate? It seems unfair to lump him in with someone like Roy Moore, who is still in denial mode.
He said he was sorry, he knew it was wrong, and he never did it again. Do you expect him to go door-to-door handing out pamphlets?
Why is this in the Pit? I almost feel the need to drop an f-bomb just on principle.
And interesting, creative take on my comment, OP – I had only thought of there being a “Celebrity Sexual Misconduct Tally” thread in IMHO for sedate discussion and a “Fuck your fucking manpologies” thread in the Pit (it so happens **elbows **HAS started that one, quite independently). But a self-appraisal, self-examination thread is itself a valuable line to pursue.
Indeed – there is a critical need to de-socialize the culture from the vision of sexual/romantic relationships as a pursuit, a hunt, as a hard sale where the male must be in Glengarry Glen Ross “Always Be Closing” mode (and some times literally a sale, as in, exchange favors for consideration of value), where reserve or hesitancy is just playing hard to get and something to be overcome through insistence and “game” … because the youth who starts off under that conditioning as just a fool Doing It Wrong, and is not corrected in a timely manner,* may then grow into* the outright abuser who sees it as hey, it’s just the way the world works and I’m going to make what I can of it.
Yeah, ISTM the two initial posters are ***not ***asking us for absolution (and we are not here to give it to them) but sharing how they acknowledge they were once the face of the problem themselves. And, Hell, a confession/apology that includes an explanation of all the good things you’ve done to make up for it may be taken by some readers as an attempt at justification and exoneration. Some people just want to first hear “yes, I did wrong”.
It also shows some perspective that I think is important here, that there are many different kinds of sexual harassment, at many different levels of severity. One teenager asking out another too many times is not the same thing as a 30-year-old groping every teenager he could get his hands on. This has implications both ways: On the one hand, it means that statistics on how many men have committed sexual harassment don’t mean that 90% of all men are spawns of Satan deserving a life sentence of listening to Rick Aston on continual loop. But on the other hand, it means that most of us are part of the problem, to at least some degree, and that we don’t just need to tell others to stop it; we need to stop it ourselves, too.
The only way this is going to stop is if a different masculinity is described and promoted. And I’m working on it. I’ll certainly let you know once I get the damn thing published.
(I do also inform males who behave in an objectifying entitled way, etc, that I resent it and the women resent it. I have no idea if it has any more impact than it does when you tell them. In the long run, men’s behavior won’t change as a consequence of being told they’re misbehaving — they have to see a different way and it has to be self-affirming, compatible with personal self-esteem, and involve outcomes they perceive as desirable. In a nutshell, it has to be a different masculinity that isn’t sexless and lustless and unsexy. This in general is true of all oppressors: they don’t change solely because of shame or because of other folks’ disapprova, but ultimately because they embrace an image of who they can aspire to be, one they can feel proud of).
Where do I begin, my lords and ladies? I’m a vile man. My crimes and sins are beyond counting. I have lied and cheated, gambled and whored. I’m not particularly good at violence but I am good at convincing others to do violence for me. You want specifics, I suppose. When I was seven, I saw a servant girl bathing in the river. I stole her robe and she was forced to return to the castle naked and in tears. I close my eyes, but I can still see her tits bouncing. When I was ten, I stuffed my uncle’s boots with goat shit. When confronted with my crime, I blamed a squire. Poor boy was flogged, and I escaped justice. When I was twelve I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew. I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage. I made the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my sister ate. At least I hope she did. I once brought a jackass and a honeycomb into a brothel…
ABSOLUTELY.
There are a huge number of variables. Getting cat called by a stranger on the street is different than a cop demanding a blow job in exchange for overlooking a speeding ticket. Having a socially clueless guy flirt with you and ask you out - even when you tell him you aren’t interested - is different than having your ex show up on your porch at two am. Overhearing dirty jokes at work is different than some guy telling you that he’d like to have your lips around his cock at work.
Having a guy be awkward at nineteen to women his own age is different than having a guy be repeatedly intimidating and using his power against a young woman who has none when he is forty - and has been doing this to women for year.
I am so sick of reading these lame apologies where the guy says shit like “this is not indicative of who I am; I respect women, blah blah blah.” It’s entirely indicative of who you are!
If we agree that there is a societal problem that puts pressure on young me to pursue where they are unwelcome and in unwelcome ways, then why is there such rejection to the idea of classes on appropriate behavior? If young women “get” to take classes on how not to get raped, why aren’t young men taking classes on appropriate socio-sexual behavior? Actually, everyone should have to. This is something no one should have to figure out the hard way.
You have never grown as a human being? You’ve never done something out of character? You’ve never spoken without thinking and said something hurtful? You’ve never objectified another human being because of how they look? You’ve never made a tasteless joke for a laugh, or misread your audience? You’ve never been too eager to form a friendship so that you come off a little creepy?
I am frankly thankful for the sincere apologies, which are important to self awareness and raising consciousness. People can’t change what they did in the past - all they can do is apologize and try and be better in the future.
And I’ve done all of the above, including having a guy work for me where it was really hard not to drool when I talked to him (I was old enough to be his mother, which made it so much creepier). What I hope is that I managed to keep my impure thoughts to myself and treat him like a human being without letting my eyes linger longingly on his biceps. I know I tried. I don’t know what he perceived.
Of course I have. But most of these men are only apologizing because they were caught. There is nothing sincere about these apologies. Maybe if the incident happened 20 years ago, the guy grew and changed for the better. But when it happened recently, sorry, they aren’t sincere.
Agreed. But classes would only be a start. If lecturing kids about what is cool and what isn’t worked well, there would not be much of a drug problem. I think you’d need the message fed through several cultural channels.
I’m not sure if that’s a thing. It’s not a thing I’ve ever encountered or heard of at all.
Also, it seems like it’s older men who tend to abuse their power. Men who certainly know that it’s wrong and who have absolutely no excuse for doing so.
I agree with this. Where I do think there is a societal problem is that there can be considerable pressure to keep quiet about it. Both for the victims and for those who witness what’s happening.
Except for every teenage rom-com ever. It’s always boy meets girl, boy likes girl, girl hates boy. Boy is persistent, never giving up or backing down, ignoring her requests that he back off and go away, and finally publically humiliates himself (and her) and that is what gets her to finally realize she actually does love him, and did all along. That’s not how relationships work, but it is how they are portrayed in media. If you follow the “advice” given in many of these movies, it’s not cute, it’s harassment, and sometimes even assault. I am reminded of a terrible movie I watched a few years back with two spies competing over a girl, not only stalking and harassing her, but abusing the intelligence apparatus they had at their disposal to do so (I hate the movie too much to recall the name, but I can if a cite is needed on this thing.)
And I am, of course, not saying that we should follow examples in movies as to how we should go about our lives, but it is very evident that people do. Of course, thinking about who it is that is writing and producing these movies, and the reveals in the culture that are happening right now, it is entirely possible that that is the twisted way that they saw the world.
That’s a different situation. Those are people who should know better. Maybe not knowing better on how to attract and retain a romantic interest, but they certainly should know that there are power disparities, and that those can be used to coerce people into things. They shouldn’t do that.
But I do see it as two entirely different types of sexual “predators”. The type to be really concerned about are the people who use what powers they have at their disposal to control and abuse women. People with power often do not get that power by being “beta”, but they get it through being very domineering and “alpha” in their interactions. They’re narcissists, really, and narcissist do not give a lick about the feelings of those they hurt, and usually downplay the possible consequences of their actions. I do feel that when we look at people at higher levels of wealth and power, there will be a higher level of harassment going on.
It’ll be real interesting if the women that work in legal or financial fields start coming forward, but those industries have people far more powerful than mere celebrities or politicians, so it will likely be a bit before women have the courage to come forward against those men.
The other type of sexual predator is a guy that is socially awkward, and in a desperate to get laid, does things that are offensive to women. Does not excuse it, not at all, but it does show that solutions to the two types of predators are not the same. The second type can probably be cured by a bit of useful advice, while the first doesn’t want to be cured at all.
The men in this thread aren’t doing that. They are apologizing for things in the past and not because they were caught.