I post on a female-dominated board, and there are some women who swear up one side and down the other that they get harassed by men pretty much every time they leave the house. Any effort by me to convince them that maybe they aren’t, or that they need to go other places or associate with other people if they are, gets shot down. :rolleyes:
One of them in particular has a job where she deals with a lot of people who engage in the outer fringes of human sexuality, and some of them have admitted that they had been raped or were victims of other kinds of abuse.
I also stop reading or listening if I see or hear the phrase “rape culture”. To me, it’s as much of a buzzword as “soccer mom” and about as well defined.
I’ve never met an especially woman. Not that I know of, anyway.
I’m not a woman, much less all women, so I can’t really speak for what all women have done, but I’d venture that there are certainly some women who have been burned (read: raped) and are hypersensitive as a result. However I believe it’s also pretty clear that there’s a hell of a lot of abuse that ladies are put through that most men aren’t really aware of because they haven’t experienced anything like it. Sort of like how I doubt most woman really understand what it’d like to be kicked in the nuts, I assume that men like me and definitely you are unable to truly appreciate living in the modern world as a woman. And just like I wouldn’t be impressed if a woman pooh-poohed a man’s crotch pain…
Also, a lot of people (especially men) make the mistake of looking at these reports through the lens of, “Well, if it happened to me, I’d have been okay with it,” which is not a particularly useful metric when it comes to evaluating unwanted sexual contact and/or sexual harassment.
Starting in the early 80s, I had to take sexual harassment training every year (first in the Navy, then as a civilian employee of the Navy) and one thing that was emphasized was that if you felt harassed, then it was harassment, even if it wasn’t meant to be. I might consider a comment to be obnoxious or annoying, but someone else might take offense. There’s no clear definition.
And there are those who go out of their way to be offended - I had a roommate eons ago who yelled at a guy who held a door open for her. I could see her feeling harassed in the most innocent situations. And that’s something that really scares me - it destroys the credibility of those who are truly victimized.
I’m hoping the awareness will lead to more people speaking up and being taken seriously, but I worry that there will be accusations by attention-seekers or just plain flakes.
They say that every time a man they don’t know looks at them, he’s mentally undressing her, or if he casually says “hello”, it’s really a pickup line, or even that they regularly get groped, catcalled, etc. in most public places - that kind of thing. One of them has even claimed to have been repeatedly harassed at a PTA meeting, which had me saying, “What kind of PTA meetings do you go to?” and she replied, “Oh, you know, that man who invades your personal space, or winks at you, etc.” Ooooo-kay, if he’s giving off creepy vibes, other women are going to notice it, and maybe, just maybe, he should be banned from the meetings? :rolleyes:
These are not teenagers who think the world still revolves around them. They are adult women, even middle-aged or older. :dubious:
In my experience absolutely not. The real problem is the number of men who after being confronted with their actions of sexual harassment try to deflect blame by claiming their victims are over-reacting. Men who are truly considerate do whatever is necessary to make those around them feel comfortable and respected even if it means occasional behavioral changes.
There is a “reasonable person” protection. A wannabe victim can’t claim, “Good morning, Ms. Johnson” is harassment, because no reasonable person would take it that way. It is not 100% subjective.
So you’re saying that they’re complaining about nothing, dismissing everything they say. And then you say that if their complaints were real they would have gotten the creeps banned from their meetings, which would have required them to get other people to believe they’re not complaining about nothing and not dismiss everything they say.
I think by this logic I could stand there kicking you in the nuts and if you failed to convince me it was a problem then you clearly aren’t having a problem, so suck it up. And really, why should I believe there’s a problem? I can kick you in the nuts all day and I don’t hurt a bit!
Some individuals may misinterpret perfectly innocent, non-threatening behavior. I’m sure that can happen. However, sexual harassment occurs so often, far more frequently than many people (especially men?) are aware of or prepared to admit.
The OP reminds me a bit of a white person who thinks that racism doesn’t exist or that it is far less prevalent than it actually is. “Why do black people complain about racism? I’ve never seen any racist behavior at all! They are just imagining it, too sensitive, blah blah blah.”
I never said it doesn’t exist. I KNOW it does because I’ve experienced it (although not from a boss). I’m just saying that I think there are some people who don’t know the difference.
If a woman says she feels harrassed, then it’s harrassment. OK, then if I feel accused, then it’s an accusation. Defend your accusation. A shoe for each foot.
For sexual harassment it tends to be “reasonable woman” and it should be understood to be a legal standard.
There is a difference between “am I doing something I could end up in court over” and “am I doing something that might make 1% of the population uncomfortable.” While we should strive to make sure everyone feels respected and comfortable, and your line should not be “can I get fired, or go to court” - its not possible for everyone to remain feeling comfortable all of the time. It is possible you are staring into space behind her, with your eyes unfocused - and she thinks you are staring at her chest. It is possible that you bumped against her accidentally, and she thinks you did it on purpose.
No one will be 100% perfect in all situations. But STRIVE for treating people with respect and not as objects or people there for your convenience, and you’ll probably do fine. That includes not telling women to “smile” or asking only the women in your office if anyone has a good recipe for a potluck or asking the woman on the team to call in the lunch order. That includes trying to be aware of your biases.
Some women are going to continually feel uncomfortable. They may have been abuse victims. They might just be stunningly gorgeous and therefore always feel like they are being looked at (my husband has a colleague like that - you don’t go anywhere with her without feeling like the world is staring at her - and you by association) They may just be self concious. They may be easy targets or spend time in neighborhoods where cat calling is common (I get cat called a lot more when I work downtown than when I’m in the suburbs). If you treat everyone with respect, then their issues aren’t your problem.
Of course “some” women are going to misinterpret something. Some fraction of a population is always going to misinterpret something. Because people be stupid and crazy.
The other thing is that the internet is a great platform for exaggeration and black and white statements. Its like we have all this space to use words, and all that comes out is “bottle feeding will kill your child!” or “all men are sexually harassing pricks, I can’t leave my house without someone patting me on the ass!” or “declawing your cat is animal abuse and you should be punishable by the electric chair!”
(I couldn’t do mommy boards when my kids were little for this reason, and I hate political boards for this reason. And I suspect some female centric boards are currently having their moment with sexual harassment).
I never heard “if you feel harrassed, it’s harassment”. I always heard “if she tells you to stop and its unwelcome and you continue, it’s harassment, even if ither people wouldn’t define it as such.”
So telling a woman she looks nice isn’t harassment . . .but telling her after she’s asked you to not make personal comments is. And I think that’s pretty damn reasonable.
It used to be “if you feel harassed…”, I’ve received that training with that specific wording many times as recently as the early 00s. Somewhen though, it began changing. I first noticed it while in the army. Basic, AIT, inprocessing and unit indoctrination at every duty station I went to, plus the mandatory annual sensitivity training, at some point, I couldn’t really tell you when now, it changed from “if you feel…” to “if she tells you…” to “if they tell you…” to make it more unisex and to recognize that men also suffer sexual harassment. After I got out, the one large corporation I worked for had the old “if she feels…” standard for their initial sensitivity training at hiring.
What seems to be happening is that all sorts of interactions are being seen as sexual interactions whether that’s a reasonable interpretation or not.
Patting a female on the butt? Yeah, kinda sexual there.
Tapping a person on the shoulder to get their attention? That was discussed in a nearby thread just recently. Simply tapping the wrong person on the shoulder these days might not only get the tapper accused of physical assault :rolleyes: but of sexual assault, given the paranoia about mere touching these days. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don’t we have a well-known poster on this board — indeed, right in this thread — who insists that a male simply trying to shake her hand is guilty, not only of assault, but rape ? People like that are a menace to all the males unfortunate to share a planet with them.
