I see a lot of folks that express confusion about consent or something related to consent. I hear stuff like “Does that mean I can’t try to kiss my date?” or “am I gonna be fired for patting my co-worker on the shoulder?”.
IMO, consent isn’t hard. None of the scenarios that I’ve heard expressed as confusing or challenging seem so to me. IMO, it depends on a lot of things, but it’s pretty much all common sense.
If you’re on a date, sitting on a park bench, you can put your arm around your date. If they don’t want it there, they’ll probably make it clear, and you can take it away. If they’re okay with it, you can lean in for a kiss. They’ll probably kiss you if they want, and if not, they’ll turn the other way. Etc.
That’s pretty straight forward, right? So are other scenarios. At work, don’t put your arm around a co-worker. Don’t try to kiss them. Don’t touch any part of their body, in general, unless required for work. Maybe a pat on the shoulder or back is okay under a few circumstances with long-time co-workers/friends.
There are a million other scenarios, of course. But I haven’t come across any that are that hard, IMO. So who’s confused about consent? Who’s scared that they’ll get in trouble? Let’s talk about it.
[ul]
[li]What if one party is drunk? [/li][li]What if both parties are drunk? [/li][li]What if one party consents because the other party lied? Where does it end? Is lying about your job and someone sleeping with you based on that rape? What if a woman wears spanx and ‘lies’ about her figure? Where does lying about your sexual desirability reach the point where you aren’t consenting based on what is really happening? Is lying by pretending you are a millionaire rape? What about lying by wearing makeup? Where is the line regarding presenting a false impression of your own sexual desirablity[/li][li]What if both parties enjoy BDSM games and one party misreads the body language of the other partner? [/li][li]What if both parties consent during the act, but down the road one of the parties decided they didn’t consent?[/li][li]What if one party has power over the other? Older age, holds debt the other person owes, understands the other parties psychological weaknesses, etc. [/li][/ul]
Right. The rules change with the situation. Two people on a date should expect some touching, which they can also say no to, but you don’t need permission to start touching. Doctors can’t put there hands anywhere on a patient at any time but for certain kinds of exams and treatments there is an expectation they will touch you. And if you don’t like it you can go find another doctor who won’t touch you.
This seems simple to me. I think the rule can be clearer by saying some physically harmless and non threatening touching is not a violation per se but still must stop if there is an objection. So if someone touches a co-workers shoulder you don’t need to evaluate the depth of the relationship, if the person touched says stop then it can’t happen again.
And why do there have to be some minor exceptions like that? Why can’t you just say no touching allowed? Because then life becomes a constant trip in the family car listening to the kids in the back whining - “He touched me!” - “Nuh uh, she touched me first” - “He’s looking at me!”.
Ok, let’s say drunk means voluntarily intoxicated past the ability to consent.
[ul]
[li]If one party is drunk, they can’t consent. [/li][li]If both parties are drunk they are equivalent to wild animals and not responsible for their actions. There is no question of consent.[/li][li]Lies are irrelevant. If you consent you consent. It’s not a quid pro quo, you unconditionally consent to specific acts and have no expectation for anything in return.[/li][li]Re: BDSM - If you play dangerous games you take risks. Don’t consent if you don’t want to take the risk.[/li][li]You can consent shortly prior to becoming too intoxicated to consent. You can still object while intoxicated, but you can’t decide after the fact that you would have changed their mind if you didn’t become voluntarily intoxicated.[/li][li]Your examples of power are irrelevant outside professional relationships. If you are in debt just say no. You already owe the money, saying no doesn’t increase your debt, there’s no power there. If you want to pay off your debt with sex then go ahead and try but don’t expect me to pay taxes to enforce sex contracts. Psychological weaknesses are your own problem. If a professional counselor or doctor takes advantage of what they know of your psychological state it should be a crime without regard to the issue of consent.[/li][/ul]
These things really aren’t that difficult if you assume people should take responsibility for their own actions and their own consent. You can take back consent any time up the present, but not in the future.
I can’t comment on the O.P.'s remarks on dating. I’m 55. Cannot even imagine dating.
That said, the workplace? I’ve modified my behavior at work.
No eye contact.
Never smile at a female co-worker.
No physical contact of any kind, at any time, for any reason.
When walking down the weirdly narrow hallways behind the studio, if a woman is approaching, I stop.
Period.
I’m there to do my job. Not look at women. Long as I hew to that behavior, nobody can accuse me of anything.
This thread won’t resolve anything. For most non-jerks, this isn’t really an issue. It’s clear when to move forward and clear when to stop and back off. If you’re really unclear, you’d better err on the side of caution.
Situations where genuinely well-meaning people actually get in trouble with consent are so few and far between that they aren’t worth discussing.
So, this thread will consist of people bringing up all kinds of edge cases that rarely or never happen in real life, and others explaining what to do, and then back and forth.
With many threads similar to this one, I find myself thinking, “can that poster be serious? Does he really not know what to do?” or “Welcome to Planet Earth! I’d like to explain how humans interact with each other, but it may take a while.”
The “Don’t be a jerk” rule extends past these boards into real life and is often an excellent guide as to how to deal with the opposite sex. The reason why edge cases make the news is because they are so rare – for every bizarre accusation or bizarre defense, there are millions and millions of human interactions that proceed just fine.
Anyway, those are my two cents. No cites for my opinions above, sorry.
How very odd. You don’t even shake hands? The way you act towards women at work is much worse than if you just treated them like the men you work with.
Yeah, really. “I refuse to understand how to treat women as equals. Instead I will try to punish them a different way while sulking in self-pity.”
All these men – and it really is all men – saying I AM SO CONFUSED AND AFRAID NOW.
Just friggin be polite, how hard can that be? Already polite? You are good to go. Don’t know whether you’re polite or not? Very simple: would you want a man doing to you what you are doing to her? If the answer is no, just stop doing it! Ta da! Fixed it for ya.
Yet the whining and cowering continues.
Dates are about trying out romantic possibilities. They are inherently full of encroachments, hints not taken, misunderstandings, and everyone trying too hard. Just be polite! Not sure if she’s in the mood for it? Use your words, big guy.
I think you meant to say, “All these men – and it really is ONLY men…”, because what you wrote is pretty ambiguous to me and you look like you’re implying all men are confused and afraid. I hope that’s not what you’re saying – don’t make me get all hashtag on you!
