In another thread, someone posted that they had an incident at work where a woman was talking at the end of a meeting, and a man put his hand on her wrist and said essentially ‘we’re out of time, let’s table this discussion until later’. The woman was bothered by the touching and complained to HR, who sent the guy to counseling. The person posting about the incident felt that this was overblown, that the woman should have handled it herself and that HR definitely shouldn’t have done anything about the guy touching unwilling co-workers. I disagreed with that idea, hence the post.
I don’t really think that it’s asking for too much to expect employees to abide by elementary-school level conduct rules. “Billy, don’t touch Sally” “But it was just her wrist, why is she such a big baby” is just not a reasonable exchange in a professional environment, and I don’t think Sally has any obligation to take on the task of re-teaching grade school manners to Billy if he hasn’t learned them yet. Also, I think it’s pretty clear that people engaging in such touching understand perfectly well that it is often unwanted and inappropriate - I doubt you’d see that guy touching the CEO’s arm while asking him to cut a meeting short, or patting the wrist of one of the burly guys on the factory floor when talking to him.
So, what do people think? Is it unreasonable to expect touchy-McFeely to not touch his female co-workers wrist when talking to her? Is it unreasonable for Sally no-touch to be disturbed or to go to HR? Is it unreasonable for HR to counsel the guy about third grade ‘no touching’ rules he doesn’t get, and in which direction - should they fire him on the spot, or should they tell Sally to shut up and accept his hand on her?
There have been several threads about this. Some people just HAVE to touch others, regardless of any changing societal rules. I don’t understand it, myself. Keep your hands to yourself. It’s not hard.
IMHO, he shouldn’t have touched her (on the wrist or anywhere,) but for her to go straight to HR was overreacting and excessive. She could have reprimanded him herself at first. Of course, if he persisted a 2nd time later on, then it’s HR time.
I don’t remember Never Touch Anybody Else Ever being a rule from my own elementary school days. I think there might have been situations where kids were specifically directed to hold hands, like when crossing the street or playing Red Rover.
I didn’t see the original thread (or any other) where this was already discussed. I don’t think there’s anything at all inherently wrong with that kind of touching. But if the person doesn’t want to be touched, you don’t touch them. Which is why it makes a big difference whether this was a “first offense” with no previous indication that she hated being touched, or not.
You left out a very important part of your tale-In the original this took part in the military, everyone involved were people of various rank, and there is currently a problem with sexual harassment in the military(a humongous 38% jump in sexual harassment reports from 2016 to 2018) that indicates that trying to deal with it as you suggest just isn’t working out.
Perhaps she knew that reprimand would be met with indifference, or even worse, a downplay of the seriousness that she felt it warranted. As demonstrated by the poster in the other thread who brought it up.
I think different groups and workplaces have different norms about touching and people within those groups can have different feelings from the group norm. I cannot imagine someone touching my wrist and saying we’re out of time at a meeting, but I absolutely see other types of touching all the time . Everything from people hugging when they haven’t seen someone for a long time, to one person throwing their arm around another’s shoulder to fist bumps and handshaking - which after all, involve someone touching another person just as much as a touch on the wrist. Which is not to say that everyone must accept such touching- but it does suggest that touches are not always unwanted and inappropriate.
None of the above. HR should tell Billy that Sally doesn’t want to be touched and that he shouldn’t do it in the future . Sally has every right to not want to be touched but it’s unreasonable to expect coworkers to be able to read each individual person’s mind as to what is offensive. Maybe Sally doesn’t want Billy to shake her hand while Jane is offended that Billy shakes Joe’s hand but not hers There are some touches that are likely to be offensive to anyone, but I am not at all sure that a touch on the wrist is one of them. Not to mention Sally doesn’t come off so well running to HR about a touch on the wrist rather than telling Billy not to touch her in the future. According to you , Billy may not have learned the third grade no-touching rules- but it seems by your description that Sally hasn’t learned some third grade rules herself.
I thought lightly touching a female on the wrist was some sort of control move(I’ve never seen anyone lightly touch a male on the wrist to control what they say, btw)-am I mistaken?
I am confused - I agree that if this was in the military that is a very important part of the story. But Velocity wasn’t the OP of this thread - was the "tale " you refer to in the other thread?
I will admit to the occasional light touch on a colleague’s shoulder for emphasis, but only if I know them well enough to be informal. But this…
…in the context given does indeed sound like a control move, and it is usually male on female. I have had female bosses do something similar without actually touching - touching the table in front of me - when they wanted to stop me from rambling on in a meeting (usually with good reason) but actually touching is a no-no.
While I don’t think this touch was sexual in nature, it was an example of sexual inequality. He put his hand on her wrist and spoke to her that way because she is a woman. It’s a way for him to put her in her place and let her know he doesn’t view her as an equal. He would not have done the same thing to a man. I wouldn’t be surprised if he also did things like tell a woman not to be so emotional in a meeting and stuff like that. Someone needs to talk to him to tell him to knock it off. It might as well be HR who does it.
As a general rule, no…it’s not ok. It can often be misinterpreted, and can lead to an escalations of touching that is inappropriate. Also, not everyone likes to be touched…I don’t, at least not by those who aren’t close to me. I don’t like casual touching, even if it’s not inappropriate.
Basically, just say no. Now, if you are talking about close friends of yours at work, where hand shakes or back slaps or even hugs are what you and your friends do…well, that should probably be done outside of the workplace, regardless except maybe in some very special and rare circumstances.