If I worked with a guy who refused to look at me, and if I passed him in the hallway he always stopped and looked down (because refusing to look at me), I would think something weird was wrong with him. I really doubt you treat men that way.
I treat possibly-dangerous animals that way. They often resent being looked at and certainly resent being touched unless they initiate it. Perhaps there’s a link.
The drunk part and consent is tricky. I tend to believe it depends on whether there is an existing sexual relationship. If two strangers meet in a bar, and one is drunk and the other isn’t it is iffy, but still not sexual assault (it isn’t sexual assault IMO unless one party is passed out from being drunk or intoxicated).
However if they are in an established relationship and they have had sex before, then issues like drunkenness are not issues. If one party is drunk or both are drunk, if it is an established relationship then its not an issue.
Not that I’m aware of.
It runs afoul of that weird caricature of the consent rules where you’re apparently supposed to hear yes before you move forward at all. It’s a good guide, I guess, for people who have no ability to read other people.
As she lies there frozen in terror or disgust, “hey, she never said no so I went ahead!” It’s for people like that you need Yes means Yes. For them, it makes sense to ask, may I kiss you? Can I put my hand there? How about there? Because, they apparently have no ability to tell when someone is squirming away or too drunk to consent.
The reality, of course, is that millions of people get together every day with consent without anyone actually saying Yes. Because, when you move in for the kiss and she moves in for the kiss, you’re probably fine to move forward. When she goes to touch there and you move her hand away, it’s probably a good time to step back.
I think part of the problem is we’re influenced by the way people get together in fiction. Seriously.
It makes dramatic sense for a kiss to be a sudden thing. So many men can relate, at least in high school, to leaning in for a kiss and being rejected.
Most of us learn that it shouldn’t happen like that; you gradually escalate physical contact from gentle tap on elbow, to kiss, getting feedback the whole time on whether she’s willing.
Movies are starting to catch up too; some of the cliche romance tropes (which are actually creepy) are dying off.
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It will remain tricky. Part of the problem is defining the line where it is a societal function to judge the actions of drunks. I don’t have a problem with people acting like wild animals in private, I encourage it some forms, but if you’re going to get drunk with others in private don’t put a burden on me to figure out who consented to what.
The no-physical-contact decision makes sense, but I’m guessing your job doesn’t require much personal interaction. I can’t imagine anyone who could consistently and successfully interact in person with coworkers and supervisors without any eye contact whatsoever. Furthermore, if you’re making eye contact with male coworkers and not female coworkers, you’re not necessarily avoiding trouble. If anyone, male or female, treated me and others that way at work, I’d frankly be a little creeped out.
Do you ever speak to woman at work? If so, do you speak to them the same way you speak to men?
That’s what safe words are for, un-graying the situation.
Your original version can be read as “every man is confused”. RitterSport’s correction was “all the people who are confused happen to be men”. So, since RS’s version apparently is what you meant, what is that “no” supposed to mean?
Geez, I miss the 80’s.
Former US Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart, when faced with defining what makes something pornographic, quipped, “I know it when I see it.”
I think this is a lot like that. People want a bright line definition but as you delve into it there just isn’t one. The world just doesn’t work this way and therin lies the impossible to resolve problem at hand.
Any way to regiment this and get that bright line ends up being really weird and impractical.
Exactly, the best policy is to treat female co-workers like the humans they are.
If you are grabbing the asses, kissing or making sex jokes with co-workers who are the same gender, and making ignoring contact with women in the workplace you have a bigger issue.
Sexual harassment is sexual harassment no matter what the recipient’s gender is. Men who have been sexually assaulted have the same feelings and reactions as other do, but they typically also face some additional challenges on taking action because of societal norms.
The best policy is to just avoid making of unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks to any coworker.
Nelliebly is making the proper argument here, no special treatment of women is required from men, all that is required is being respectful and professional with everyone.
I’ll assume this is user_name/post combo irony. The alternative is a description of behavior too dysfunctional to contemplate.
Still not clear, huh? Let me try one more time.
The people who are confused about what consent is, are all men. Women do not seem to be confused.
Men
subset A: confused about consent.
subset B: not confused about consent
Women
all not confused about consent
Does that work?
The first google hit for affirmative consent gives a page with this:
Your plan to:
Clearly violates that.
You might notice that your link discusses affirmative consent for sexual activity. Putting your arm around someone is not sexual activity.
Consent is not a question, it is a state.
It my be useful to consider the other persons enthusiasm.
if you put your arm around someone and they lean in, or indicate enthusiasm in another way it is OK. If they freeze, look terrified or pull away you need to verbalize your question for consent or apologize for misreading the situation.
All one has to do is to only engage in physical contact with people who are clearly receptive to it at the time.
Non-action and passivity are simply not indicators of being receptive and/or consent.
Unless you’re Al Franken.
Sorry. Couldn’t resist.
Okay, okay, don’t shove!..I’ll show myself out.
That is a school policy that you have to consent to following in order for it to mean anything. They could make a policy that you need written permission before you even ask for verbal permission if they wanted to. I think it’s perverted myself, I’d advise people to find schools that have a healthy attitude about sex.
Women intuitively know if they’re consenting. Men may have intuitions about whether the woman is consenting, (less so if they’re young, like college age) but if a man is accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault, saying, “I intuitively knew she wanted it” won’t help his case. So with all the media attention and talk of affirmative consent, even a man who always acts in good faith wants to know the new rules, and saying that it’s just common sense doesn’t help; it’s like saying, “Just be a good person and you won’t get arrested,” or, “Just drive safely and you won’t get stopped.” You want to know the rules. This is especially true if you’re dealing with a college or a job, which may have less rigorous ideas of due process and the rights of the accused than you’d get in a criminal trial.
Years ago, I worked in an office, where at first I acted all gentlemanly and disguised my true nature 
, until I discovered the women were going fast and furious with the sexual banter, so I figured, to hell with Puritanism, and bantered right back at them. It was clearly consentual and a fun job. I wouldn’t do that today. Assholes and the clueless have ruined it, so now we can’t have nice things.