Why did feminism end up perpetuating the stereotypes it was supposed to destroy?

Great Debates
1

This has been on my mind for years and I’m taking this moment to bring it up.

I’m an old-school feminist, weaned on burned bras and the ERA, * The Feminine Mystique *. Our Bodies Ourselves, Ms. and Gloria Steinem. My mother was a feminist before feminist was an idea, a woman alone raising 4 daughters after both the men she married behaved very, very badly. I didn’t have to have my mind changed about how strong women are and what they are capable of, the fact that they are the equal of men (not the same as, equal to…different concepts), even physically, depending on the man and the woman in question, because that’s the only way I ever knew to think of the sexes to begin with.

My mother taught me that I could have sex when I was ready to take responsibility for the potential consequences, never to marry a man I hadn’t slept with first, and that my orgasm was just as important as his. (And she also told me “Never on your knees!” but that just shows the limitations of my mother’s sexual imagination, so I ignored that one.) And she taught me that no matter what, the first time a man hits me must also be the last, no exceptions.

And as a woman raised thus, a true blue feminist, I have to say here and now how deeply disappointing it is to me to see how so much of what feminism was once about got transmogrified into the same old story dressed up in a modern outfit.

I refer to modern ideas of sexual harassment, primarily, and secondarily, some people’s ideas of what constitutes rape, and the effect of pornography. Put simply: Spare me.

Declaring that sexual imagry in the form of Playboy calendars and dirty jokes constitute sexual harassment just pisses me off. I hear that and I get a mental picture of Miss Pittypat fainting when Scarlett dared dance with Rhett while in mourning. Sorry, sisters, but we can’t have it both ways…either we are strong, confident, and self-assured, or we are a bunch of twittering “ladies” of delicate sensibilities that must be “protected”. Yack.

It doesn’t mean you can’t be offended by dirty jokes and nudie calendars, feel free. Bitch about it. Depending on where you work, it’s probably inappropriate anyway. But don’t say you are being sexually harassed, it is an insult to those who really are victims of sexual harassment. (not to mention how narcissistic it makes you look…honestly, girlfriend, it isn’t always about YOU.)

Same goes for some things that are being called rape. Getting drunk and making a bad decision that you regret when you wake up doesn’t make the guy you made a bad decision about a rapist, it makes you a foolish woman who shouldn’t drink so much. Again, an insult to women who have really been raped. Try taking responsibility for yourself.

Furthermore, sometimes “no” does in fact mean “yes” - sexual relations between people are a slippery thing, and while I don’t want to see men go back to thinking that it’s even slightly ok to force a woman to have sex with him, I don’t want to drain all the juice out of sex, either.

Incidentally, pornography does not degrade ME, I can’t imagine how it degrades YOU. I am not all women, and neither are you. There is room for a variety of experience and choice, we do not have to march in lockstep, most particularly when it comes to our sexuality. Some of us feel liberated and wonderful about pornography, we’d appreciate it if you’d keep your own issues with it to yourself and not tell us we are something we know we are not. Thanks so much.

And finally, I’ve said this before in reference to Clinton & Jones… penises are not weapons, and the mere sight of one shouldn’t be traumatizing. If a man shows you his, it is unlikely he intends to murder you with it. If you do not like that he has shown it to you uninvited, that is completely understandable, and you should make your feelings clearly known, in strong language and decisive behavior. But really, falling apart over it is a bit much. (It is a given that some men produce their penises as part of the act of rape, and that in that circumstance, the penis IS a weapon, but that is not what I’m referring to here.) If nothing else, it just encourages him to believe in its devastating power, and we hardly need more of that. I suggest laughing and pointing.

That’s all I wanted to say. I feel better now.

stoid

2

Terrific post, Stoid! I agree with you.

And, on a more trivial note, how did it happen that we (most of us, anyway) reverted to wearing (or never stopped wearing?) traditional “feminine” clothes to work, etc.? Including those disgusting, masochistic things, high heels?

3

male chiming in…

FWIW I couldn’t agree more, Stoid but as a man (perhaps wrongly) I’ve felt a bit more constrained about voicing views like yours.

Not wanting to hijack, but interested in your views; where do you stand on courtesy stuff (I’m thinking of things like men holding doors open etc)? I tend to be an equal-opportunity door holder - I’ll hold it open to anyone coming the other way, but I’ve very occasionally got the odd look from some women.

Thanks very much for some very disturbing mental imagery :smiley:

4

[slight hijack]
I never really understood the burning-bras thing. As a feminist, I dress how the hell I want to dress - sexy, seductive, businesslike, scruffy - whatever I feel like or suits my purpose that day best.

But I really would be confined to the bedroom if I didn’t have a bra. It would be uncomfortable, things would wobble nightmarishly if I ran, and they’d end up on my knees by the time I was 30.

Maybe I’ve been conditioned to find less saggy, higher breasts attractive. I don’t know. What I do know is that my bra is more like armour for me, it’s protective and supportive, not a restrictive/imposed garment by men. (In fact there are loads of men out there who get more kicks from seeing women “jiggle around” it seems).

I also realise the burning-bras thing was largely symbolic. But it’s always struck me as an odd thing for the early feminist movement to focus upon. Sure - burn microskirts, or false eyelashes, or 5" plastic nails, or hideously uncomfortably porn-shop style underwear that feels like barb-wire netting. But please leave me my nice, comfortable, useful helpful bras!
[/slight hijack]

5

That sounds amazingly sensible to me - but then I’m a man and optimistic about humankind. I wouldn’t use the word feminist in any other way, and am relieved to know I can call myself feminist :slight_smile:

But we’re not hearing from the other side of the argument here. Anyone?

6

I wonder if, as with most other philosophies, ideologies and principles, the idea ends up being hijacked by a vocal minority of supporters and opponents. When feminism is taken to ridiculous extremes by a very few people and then publicised and ridiculed by equally vocal opponents, it can drown out the majority of quiet, practical supporters who don’t feel the need to shout about it.

7

The Other side is a small minority, which conservatives like to paint as the only face of feminism. I’m a guy, and I consider myself a feminist.
The extreme (Andrea Dworkin) viewpoint does exist, but is nowhere near as common among feminists as the Ann Coulters of the world would have us believe.

8

Absolutely right, Crusoe. Certainly some feminists object to pornography, but I’d have to say it’s not a front-burner issue for most of us. Feminists who do object strongly to porn, etc. are more likely to get quoted by the media because 1) it’s a sensational issue 2) they give good sound bites. And if you’re a right-winger opposed to “feminazis” who is it easier to pillory–the outspoken, radical, anti-porn activist or the women slogging away in the trenches, working at rape crisis centers and women’s shelters?

Personally, I find most porn repellent, but no one’s forcing me to sit down and watch nudie videos. As long as it doesn’t involve kids and I don’t have to see it, look at all the damn porn you want is my feeling.

9

Then why is there hilarity when I say I’m a feminist?

10

I have long maintained that frivolous sexual harassment complaints (objecting the the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Calender as harassment, or a friendly pat on the back from a male supervisor, or someone telling an off-color joke in your presence when it’s not directed at you, or, and this happens in the casino industry, going to H.R. and complaining because a customer said a four-letter word in front of you and the floorman didn’t tell the guy to watch his language), actually makes life more difficult for women in the workplace. First, it makes us look like fragile little creatures who can’t handle life in the real world unless the men make it soft and fluffy for us, second, it makes managers nervous about hiring women for fear of having complaints leveled against them for behaving like normal, red-blooded human beings.

Also, on the rape issue, I agree again. Yes some women are raped by their dates (I paid for dinner, bitch), but there are a certain number of women who will either have too much to drink and sleep with a guy she wouldn’t normally be attracted to, or give in to sex with someone she really doesn’t want to be with against her better judgement (I’ve done this myself) because the guy was persistent/insistent. To define such instances as rape is outrageous. Get a job, save your money and buy yourself a backbone.

11

I never considered that I was a feminist. Honest. From the OP’s description, it seems that anyone who feels that even having to assert something like “women are people too” is exactly how Bad It All Is is a feminist… Can this be the case? That feels like as much of a movement as “punk” is/was/will be, to tell the truth; that is to say, even giving it a label seems contradictory to its stated intentions: the integration of women into society (consider, for example, someone who demands equal attention by screaming so loud as to drown everyone out: contradictory to stated intentions).

Thanks for this thread; I shall follow with interest.

12

[ hijack ]

That would have weaned me.

[ /hijack ]

13

Its seems to be a natural human tendency, made more abundantly clear when applied to radical or anti-traditional movements. A hilarious send-up is acheived by Life of Brian spoof of radical political elements.

My own mother was one of the first to win a sexual discrimination suit against the Federal Gov. She slugged her way from Clerk/Typist (GS minus one) to a respectable position, but clearly glass ceiling. She gathered documentation, fitness reports, etc. that showed without doubt that less qualified men with comparatively poor job performance were promoted above her.

Long story short: she tore them a new one.

On another occasion: a dear friend of hers was in a desperate situation, she had to have an abortion. At that time (late 60’s) such was still illegal here in the People’s Republic of Minnesota, and her friend was terrified, and confessed that she was seeking a “back alley” solution. My Mom siezed the situation: give me two days to find another answer.

I put her in contact with a group that operated out of a hole in the wall in the part of town my Mom would not be caught dead in. She learned that they were gathering groups of women for daytrips to New York City, which had safe, legal abortions available. The plan was to gather the women in groups of five or six, fly them to NYC in the morning, go to the clinic for pre-arranged appointments, and fly back in the afternoon! A daunting prospect, to say the least.

My mother made all the arrangements, and when she was leaving she saw that the “waiting room” was “full of frightened children.” This hit her right in the Xena/Mother Hen nexus.

She bought an additional ticket for herself. She boarded the plane with her adopted “brood”, flew to NYC. There she was handed keys to a rental car and a map of NYC. First appointment in one hour. She got them there, she got them through, and got them back. My Dad, I must assume, was none the wiser. Of course, it would be some years yet before I truly understood the husbandly arts of benign ignorance.

After she had been back, she invited the (very impressed!) staff of the feminist collective that ran the aforementioned center to her house in the 'burbs. She bought gallon jugs of wine, some cheese, and the gals all got shit-faced. I happened on the scene.

She pointed somewhat approximately in my direction.

“I got a house, a good man who doesn’t even dream he’s my equal, they’re scared to death of me at work, and I have utterly useless children. If I want to do something, I by God just go and do it. So what have you got to offer this ol’ Texas gal but an opportunity to make love with women? Which, in case you don’t know, you didn’t invent.”

So what is so “feminist” here. Common sense, both in the colloquial and the “Thomas Paine” sense. It is utterly obvious to most folks that equal work deserves equal pay, a woman has a perfect right to a financial identity seperate from thier husbands, etc, etc.

Common sense dictates that a woman firefighter has every right to sneer at and deride nude posters in another (male) firefighter’s locker. Common sense rejects the idea that she has the right to have her views enforced.

It is the same common sense that decides the success of such movements. Common sense impelled men to amend the constitution such that the right of women to vote was assured. If, indeed, as radical fem theory would have it, men are a group committed to the oppression and powerlessness of women, then how could this have come about? Granted, took way longer than it should have, but, nonetheless, common sense won out.

I still retain, as Natasha knows full well, a position on the conservative wing of the extreme left. Why? Well, common sense. Tempered with common decency.

14

OK, what the hell, I’ll be a witness for the Other Side, although my position has mellowed considerably over the years.

a) **Stoid ** writes:

Since there are still plenty of people for whom a hypothetical “return back to” such a viewpoint is entirely unnecessary, and since rape continues to be a social problem for which arrest and prosecution are still a necessary part of the solution, “no” has to mean “no” to the person hearing it said, and if “no” means “yes” to the person uttering it, that person is just gonna have to ache and regret saying “no”.

b) While I agree that saying the act of depicting the female gender as its members do indeed look and do indeed present themselves is exploitative of women or intrinsically constitutes sexual harassment is mindlessly stupid, I also think that porn and/or depicting women as sex objects can be exploitative and *can * constitute sexual harassment. This is not Miss Pittypat’s fear of sexuality, either–in fact, sexual harassment can work in a decidedly anti-sexual direction. I knew a female tech in a biochem lab setting who had to put up with loud comments like “Eww, can you imagine fucking anyone so fat and skanky? God, that’s fugly” and worse, and this constituted a hostile workplace environment and did so through the operation of specifically gendered behaviors, i.e., sexual harassment.

The whole business of sexual objectification and power is complex and complicated and I have a low tolerance for feminists oranti-feminists who reduct it to “This is the sum total of what it’s about and that’s all there is to it”. I’ve written more on the subject [URL=“http://home.earthlink.net/~ahunter/VisAspectSex/lusting_1.html”]here[\URL] if you’re interested.

15

Stupid backslash. Bloody hell. OK, to avoid the necessity of cutting and pasting the link:

Here

16

Elucidator, will your mother marry me? :smiley:

Great story! You must publish it if you haven’t already.

As to the OP, I think the problem is that sometimes people (in any situation/argument) allow defensiveness to overtake reason, and then our behavior becomes reactive as opposed to proactive. In other words, the more resistance one encounters, the more one pushes back, so that what began as “Stop grabbing my ass at work, Mr. Hart” eventually became “If you so much as say the word “ass” in my presence, even if you’re quoting the Bible and talking about a donkey, I’ll have you in court so fast your head will spin and you will suffer!” because Mr. Hart laughed at the first request.

Then, of course, Mr. Hart reacted with further ridicule, and we reacted with feminist theories even more extreme.

Once this “reactionary mode” took over, it was hard for a lot of the “next generation” feminists to know what to think or do to keep the Membership card. I for one went to a womens’ college and was constantly getting mixed signals; we were supposed to be strong and independent, yet were also taught that a date who didn’t pay for dinner was worthless, and that if we had sex, we were sluts. We passed out buttons for the fellas at the nearby mens’ college to wear, buttons which declared their intent to “love, respect, and protect” us, meanwhile we abashedly downplayed our love for our boyfriends, for fear we’d be seen as “weak”.

Nobody (male or female) was really sure what the rules were when, as Stoid points out, there shouldn’t have been any other than the very basic tenets of equality.

17

Right on, Stoid! Fight the power! I’m with you 100%.

I also think it’s sad that although I have a great rapport with my co-workers, both male and female, we all feel so nervous that we can’t even tell off-color jokes around each other for fear of the consequences. My guy friends all appreciate that they can be their raunchy, goofy selves around me; now THAT is true equality.

Given, I would be VERY unhappy if my boss commented about my boobs or something, but unless he did it consistently or in a threatening way, I can’t imagine making a Federal case out of it. I sure as hell would let him know my displeasure, though.

And yes, heels and pantyhose are the creation of some sadistic, misogynistic wacko. I can’t wear them anyway, due to internal ankle hardware, but rarely did, even pre-hardware. Bras are another story; now THAT’S a comfort issue. I’d be very sad if someone burned mine.

All in all, great post! Equality is all about taking control of your fate and personal responsibility for the results of decisions freely made.

18

thanks AHunter.
RE: sexually explicit materials at work, how do you suspect that they became ‘not ok’ in the first place?

while I don’t necessarily agree that every case of sexual harassment that’s charged is in fact harassment or exemplifies a hostile work place, I’m also not so quick to suggest that feminists have gone too far.

In my personal work history, I"ve been told that I had exemplarary administrative and managerial capabilities, so would make a wonderful secretary (as opposed to the manager position that I was applying for), as he also asked how I would handle supervising males.

I also experienced a business assosicate who absolutely every single time we met, he’d ask when we were going to go to bed together (My answer was always "I don’t date married men, I don’t date coworkers, I’m seeing some one else, even if none of the above were true, I still wouldn’t go out w/you), and was told by at least one other “why don’t you just go to bed w/him and get it over with?”. (this happened in the early 1990’s)

And whatever you might choose to do in the confines of your own home, I think it should absolutely remain clear that ‘no’ means ‘no’ and not ‘try a little harder’ - or perhaps you didn’t experience that fun little game? I did. See above. That asshole stalked me for months (before stalking laws - I attempted to work the system to deal w/it, addressed the issue w/my supervisor, his coworkers. I couldn’t go to his supervisor because of a clause in my own contract). It finally ended when he got transferred to another city. But not until it’d gotten to the point where he’d drive past my house and let me know about it (no, I hadn’t given him my address).

19

First of all, http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.htm.

My take on the sexual harassment issue as expressed in the OP is that part of feminism is in having the power and courage to stand up to what is perceived as oppressive conditions. Yes, everyone’s perceptions are different but none of us can speak for all women so the issue has to be rasied for a judgment to be made. The feminism in it to me is that women do not put up with conditions that in the past were just part of the workplace and taken as a given; they are able to say something and expect some respect for it.

There are definitely things that go on at my workplace that are oppressive to me but I don’t say anything because I don’t want to be perceived as a sensitive female; is this me being a “strong woman” and letting things roll off my back or is it me caving to the expectations of men (that this behavior is OK)?

As far as date rape is concerned, yes, women put themselves in situations through risky behavior and end up having been raped (i.e., had sex with someone they didn’t want to) and this is in a sense different from an out and out attack. I just don’t think that men get punished for this, though, as women tend to blame themselves for their behavior and don’t put themselves through a rape trial because they know how it will look. Just my impression, though.

20

and furthermore, clarification should be made to the ‘when you choose to get drunk’ issue.

Anyone can at some point in time drink too much. It’s not always a planned action (once I ordered mixed drink at a bar and didn’t realize that the bartender gave me doubles for example ) and, of course being incapcitated does not give anyone else permission to do anything.

Now, if you’re talking about some one saying yes while drunk and waking up w/regrets, that’s another issue. However, I also recall with disgust that the time I was drunk, and all I do remember was saying “no, no no” to the former friend, and he described it later to people as a ‘hot night of sex’. So, depending on which of the two of us you talked to, it may have seemed like next morning regrets or rape.

So, my preference would be that the sober person should refrain from actions with the inebriated/incapacitated person in general.