I waterboard!

[Der_Trihs]

@Chouan

bdaswat is missing the point. By demonstrating the mental anguish caused by this method of interrogation, Scylla’s experiment actually reinforces its usefulness as a tool in the fight against terrorism.

There’s no reason to believe that it’s useful at all. Rather the opposite, since it makes the terrorists look more justified, and makes other less inclined to bother to cooperate with us. Given the way we behave, why should a third party care if terrorists want to kill Americans ?

@Chouan

It doesn’t matter if we waterboard or not.

Since waterboarding is evil, yes it does matter. As far as I’m concerned all the “interrogators” who have done so and those who gave permission or orders to do so should be executed.

@Chouan

What’s important is that the terrorists BELIEVE that we do, AND that it’s a terrible experience. If they don’t believe that we might conduct this form of interrogation on them, then they might refuse to cooperate.

UNENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok.

ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla’s post and winks]
AL-QAIDA: I confess!

No, what happens is that we grab people who are quite often innocent, and torture them until they tell us what we want to hear. Or until they end up dead or insane. We don’t care if our victims are innocent or guilty because we are a vile nation, a nation of self righteous sadists, thieves and mass murderers. We aren’t looking for terrorists, but for victims.

[Der_Trihs]

@Dewey Finn

Has anyone here heard of Daniel Levin? He was an assistant US attorney general in the Bush administration who had himself waterboarded voluntarily (by trained members of the military), and then wrote a memo arguing that it is in fact torture. (There is a link to the memo in the Wikipedia article.)

I mentioned him back in Post # 23.

[Dewey_Finn]

Sorry. I skimmed the thread and missed your post.

[KGS]

I think Mythbusters should try this experiment. They’re desperate for ideas anyway.

[Guinastasia]

Actually, I would think that torture is one of the LEAST affective means of getting a confession. You get a lot of false ones, anything to make them stop.

Now, if I were in charge, I’d be more subtle: total boredom. Stick them in a cell, with merely basic necessities. A small toilet/shower/sink, a cot, a sofa. But NO tv, no books, no form of entertainment whatsoever. Me, I’d be confessing within a day.

[Tristan]

@Der Trihs

No, what happens is that we grab people who are quite often innocent, and torture them until they tell us what we want to hear.

Cite?

@Der Trihs

Or until they end up dead or insane. We don’t care if our victims are innocent or guilty because we are a vile nation, a nation of self righteous sadists, thieves and mass murderers.

Cite?

@Der Trihs

We aren’t looking for terrorists, but for victims.

Cite?

You really shouldn’t come in here and threadcrap, this thread is going to be read by potentially MILLIONS.

[rowrrbazzle]

The thread’s just been Boing Boinged. What waterboarding feels like | Boing Boing

[Ocean_Annie]

@Guinastasia

Actually, I would think that torture is one of the LEAST affective means of getting a confession. You get a lot of false ones, anything to make them stop.

Now, if I were in charge, I’d be more subtle: total boredom. Stick them in a cell, with merely basic necessities. A small toilet/shower/sink, a cot, a sofa. But NO tv, no books, no form of entertainment whatsoever. Me, I’d be confessing within a day.

Yep, this is true. People will say anything under pain and extreme duress. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi was tortured and provided the false intelligence concerning Iraq’s WMD program. The information al-Libi provided and Yellow Cake were included in the NIE report presented to the UN by former Secretary of State Powell, which of course, justified the preemptive invasion of Iraq.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/244646/Op_Ed_What_is_Waterboarding_Video_

[Der_Trihs]

@Tristan

Cite?

Iraq.

@Tristan

Cite?

Iraq.

@Tristan

Cite?

Iraq.

[Tristan]

@Der Trihs

Iraq.

Iraq.

Iraq.

Ah, I am totally convinced by the eloquence and facts of your flawless argument. :rolleyes:

[Hostile_Dialect]

Stupid question, stupid answer. You knew full well that Der Trihs was not arguing directly provable facts, and you pretended he was anyway, just so you could score some points on a Dugg thread. You’ve made your bed; now you get to lie in it.

[fuctdaily]

After this thread I had to register to share my experiences.

When I was 16 I was on the swimteam, and was considered the all-time champ. I could hold my breath almost 3 minutes. I grew up in woods/nature country, and my buddy and I used to always test our “manhood” with horrible torture feats like running through the woods barefoot, building traps that rip you into the air, and tying your buddy up and leaving him to escape like you had been captured by Indians.

Back then we knew it as Chinese water torture and since I could hold my breath for 3 minutes, I absolutely wanted to show how good I’d be at it. We obviously didn’t understand the concept well enough because it’s not about being able to hold your breath.

We used an old ping-pong table, my buddy tied my hands and feet, and we made a towel soaking wet. I put it on my face, and remember laughing. We agreed that I would shake my head side to side (no sign) very, very hard when I needed him to stop. I guessed I would get two minutes so I told him to go for a while. He grabbed a milk jug and filled it up with water. After I put the towel over my face he started pouring. I think it was less than 3 seconds before I realized I had made a mistake. I totally lost it, I couldn’t think, but I knew that this was it, and I was dying and it wasn’t just that it was a horrible, horrible way to go. I started involuntarily banging my hands up and down on the table and kicking my feet.

My buddy didn’t get that I was in trouble until after 15+ seconds. After he took it the towel off he saw in my face. He kept asking over and over if I was okay, but I couldn’t even tell him to hurry up and untie me, which he forget for a few seconds. After I was untied I still was out of it. I was sure I was still dying and grabbed at him, because I need something, I was screaming out in my head for relief, anything, trying to do something in total VAIN to end my suffering. I remember thinking, hurry up die, die, stop, stop, stop.

To this day, it’s probably the stupidest thing I’ve ever done. For probably 4 months I didn’t swim afterwards. And even though I’m not completely scared of the water I have now **11 years later symptoms. ** For me I have a bit of the opposite of what you read on the internet, I have had great thirst for years, I feel like I can’t drink water, because I feel like it’s not going where it should. I know it’s all in my head. And if I drink water out of plastic, the smell of the plastic makes me remember the smell of the water through the towel. It makes me feel sorry for anybody when I hear about waterboarding and angry. I know it’s effective. It has to be. I would have DONE ANYTHING, I MEAN anything on earth to end it.

And for the jerk who said that only terrorist are waterboarded. You don’t have a clue, you just ask spec ops military guys if they know about water torture, and EVERYONE knows some story about their buddies doing it to somebody, or someone who had it happen. Often to some person that they captured after a buddy died, in some little firefight where the guy they got was just the last guy in the area NOT wearing camos, and didn’t even have a gun.

That kind of stuff went on in Vietnam, Iraq and every single war. Hell a while back we sent Japanese to prison for doing it to american soldiers. They went to prison for “torture”.

This stuff happens all the time, and the more it comes out in the public, the more jerks who think to use it. I mean it’s “elite” now you have LE officers thinking it would be badass to use this to get some info. You get every group thinking, hey the CIA is “super elite” and want to emulate them. It’s how we have cops that all want to be swat team instead of peace officers now…

In some of the CIA messages coming out, the interrogators said they “admired” some of the top suspects because one of them lasted 2 minutes, which had NEVER happened before.

**Waterboarding is torture. I’d choose having my penis cut off over being waterboarded. **

[metronicity]

Did you really need to do this to yourself to know that waterboarding is torture? Of course it’s torture. But then most of you Americans still call the invasion of Iraq a “liberation” don’t you. The 1948 U.N. “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” Article 5 specifically states “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” And yet your President has the utter gall to state the U.S. doesn’t condone or use torture. Laughable. Pity the C.I.A. illegally wiped the videos of the torture of the 9/11 suspects.

[ParentalAdvisory]

@Tristan

Ah, I am totally convinced by the eloquence and facts of your flawless argument. :rolleyes:

It was kinda lame, but do disagree with the answer?

[Tristan]

@ParentalAdvisory

It was kinda lame, but do disagree with the answer?

Der Trih’s answer? Hard to say… he’s just spouted his normal drivel, and not actually tried to *say * anything. The fact that US forces are in Iraq, while distasteful to some (including myself these days) is not proof positive that we are a nation of genocidal maniacs.

Being in Iraq is not proof that we grab random Iraqi’s off the streets and torture them, for fun, as he has stated.
While I may agree, in theory, that the situation in Iraq is bad, and morally questionable, one cannot use it, as he has, as a generic proof of the rather ludicrous claims he has posited.

[Richard_Parker]

@metronicity

Did you really need to do this to yourself to know that waterboarding is torture? Of course it’s torture. But then most of you Americans still call the invasion of Iraq a “liberation” don’t you. The 1948 U.N. “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” Article 5 specifically states “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” And yet your President has the utter gall to state the U.S. doesn’t condone or use torture. Laughable. Pity the C.I.A. illegally wiped the videos of the torture of the 9/11 suspects.

Our government has done WHAT?! Why aren’t any of our national papers reporting this? Next you’ll tell me the Liberation isn’t going so hot.

[Mr.Svinlesha]

Congrats, Scylla. You’ve made it to memeorandum and Matthew Yglasius, no less. (In other words, you’ve hit the big time in the left blogosphere). When I saw the post at MY, I thought, “Oh, man, not that Scylla.” And yet, when the link led back to this thread, I was not surprised.

Apparently, you’ve also provide incontrovertible evidence for the “Aquatic Ape Theory.”

[Der_Trihs]

@Tristan

Der Trih’s answer? Hard to say… he’s just spouted his normal drivel, and not actually tried to *say * anything. The fact that US forces are in Iraq, while distasteful to some (including myself these days) is not proof positive that we are a nation of genocidal maniacs.

Nor did I say we were genocidal. Mass murderers, not genocidal. I simply listed the things we’ve done it Iraq; when you asked for a cite, I said “Iraq”. It’s not my fault that you haven’t bothered to pay attention to what we’ve been doing there.

@Tristan

While I may agree, in theory, that the situation in Iraq is bad, and morally questionable, one cannot use it, as he has, as a generic proof of the rather ludicrous claims he has posited.

“Ludicrous” in what way ? We’ve slaughtered many of them, tortured innocent people, and engaged in neocolonialism. Let me guess; none of what we’ve done counts as bad because we’re Americans. If some other country did exactly what we’ve done we’d be screaming about what monsters they are. But WE do something, and it’s OK.

[Hostile_Dialect]

@mentronicity

Of course it’s torture. But then most of you Americans still call the invasion of Iraq a “liberation” don’t you.

You won’t be long for these Boards tossing insults around like that in GD. And no, we don’t.

@metronicity

And yet your President

He’s not “our” President. We didn’t elect him either time.

[Tristan]

@Der Trihs

Nor did I say we were genocidal. Mass murderers, not genocidal. I simply listed the things we’ve done it Iraq; when you asked for a cite, I said “Iraq”. It’s not my fault that you haven’t bothered to pay attention to what we’ve been doing there.

In this thread you allude that the only thing stopping Bush from a genocidal killing spree is that he hasn’t decided to do it yet. As for not paying attention, as we have discussed before, I feel I have a better grasp of what is going on there than you do, as I have spoken regularly with several folks that have been there. You have not, and in fact automatically presume (like any religous zealot) that anyone who has been there is lying if they say anything that disagrees with you. Mass murders have happened, but they are NOT being commited by US soldiers. Part of the role of US soldiers at this point is to try to stop those things from happening.

@der Trihs

“Ludicrous” in what way ? We’ve slaughtered many of them, tortured innocent people, and engaged in neocolonialism. Let me guess; none of what we’ve done counts as bad because we’re Americans. If some other country did exactly what we’ve done we’d be screaming about what monsters they are. But WE do something, and it’s OK.

We have killed some. Yes. In almost every case, because they have been trying to kill us. There are instances of contractors killing without provocation. Those are being investigated. In instances where US marines have been suspected of doing the things you accuse them of, they have been investigated, and in some cases prosecuted.

As for torture, yes, we apparently have tortured. I don’t like that. I am not alone, and there are very vocal elements within the government that are trying to stop it. Sadly, it has become a political battle, but hopefully what is right will win out in this one.

As for neo-colonialism, I think it’s too early to play that card.