I would admire a Christian if I met one.

Jesus had a pretty appealing message. Love everyone. Don’t judge people, because nobody is perfect. Obey the law. Never committ or support violence, even in response to violence against you. Treat everyone well. If you take the spirituality out of Christianity, you’re left with an admirable life philosophy.

So where are all the Christians, then? Why do we still have executions in a majority Christian country? Why do we still spend so much money on a powerful military we use to beat up the badguys every few years? Why is their such religious resistance to homosexuality?

Admitedly, I don’t meet a lot of people who claim to make Christianity a major focus in their life, but the ones I do meet are more judgmental and antagonistic than you’d expect. I’d like to meet a “real” Christian sometime, but I think the Christian doctrine might actually be too far from human nature for anyone to be able to follow.

That message is like a campaign promise - it helps in the rise to power, but not the exercise of power, so it gets discarded.

One thing your up against is there are some of us who do have Christ as a major focus in our lives, but don’t believe in going around bragging about it. I’ve been known to say, “If I have to tell you I’m a Christian, I’m doing a damn poor job of it.” What did James say? “Prove to me that this faith you speak of is real though not accompanied by deeds, and, by my deeds, I will prove to you my faith.” (James 2:18)

I support gay rights and gay marriage because of my Christian faith. That same Christian faith means I am required to treat others with courtesy and respect, regardless of how they treat me and regardless of how strongly I may disagree with them. As for judgement, that’s not my place or perogative, although, I do form opinions about people as we all do. A few years ago, when we had a few Fundamentalists who hung around here, the discussion got around to who was going to hell. By my eccentric belief system, I am not entitled to condemn anyone. That’s God’s job, not mine.

I know where you’re coming from, though, Mosier. I suspect one of the main reasons I am a Christian is because the Episcopal Church was the one place in town I could go as a child and not be insulted, and yes, that includes my own home. If I’d had the experience a friend of mine had, who was picked on in church to the point where she cried, I suspect I’d be one of the harshest critics of Christianity on the boards.

Still, there are a lot of Christians out there, working hard and quietly doing good. When you hear about people trying to force Intelligent Design down people’s throats or lamenting that they are no longer allowed to pray in schoools, remember that the people opposing them are also likely to be Christians. The lawsuit in Texas which led to official prayers being stopped before football games was brought by Episcopalians and Catholics, if memory serves.

No, we don’t make a lot of noise about it. One reason I don’t is because of all the damage done by those who do. I’m also a bit leery of someone who displays a lot of Christian paraphenalia, simply because the most of the people I’ve met who’ve done so have been jerks. If I don’t say “Jesus” every other word, it doesn’t mean I’m not a Christian; it’s just that I believe showing kindness to the people around me, including the clerk who sells me a hamburger during the lunch rush, is far more effective way of showing God’s love and, yes, doing God’s work than beating people over the head with the Jesus stick.

Although, Christ never intended for the “spirituality” to be taken out of his teachings. It’s inextricably intertwined with his message, as I read it.

Some people who claim to be Christians claim that Christianity is intended to guide personal behavior but not public policy. Others disagree on what the Christian position on various issues is: it’s possible to be a Christian and yet be on either side of many political controversies (although that’s oversimplifying: there are more than two “sides,” and some positions, I’d say, are clearly incompatible with Christ’s teachings.

As far as I can tell, Jimmy Carter at least tried/tries to live as a Christian, and there are probably other, less prominent, political leaders about whom one could say the same.

As others have pointed out, the ones who call the most attention to themselves aren’t always the best examples. The “real” Christians are out there, as long as you don’t insist on perfection—I’ve met quite a few.

There are real Christians out there, as you define them; one of them is a dear friend of this atheist queer. That friend is not rich, not powerful; she’s much like the quiet Christians that Siege speaks of.

I suspect that power and wealth corrupt the faithful just as thoroughly as the faithless; that anyone who feels compelled to trumpet a perceived virtue is a poor practitioner of it.

My sister in spirit for what, four years now?, Siege, speaks for me in every particular. I’ve gotten a bit crotchety and less than what I’d like to be over the years, but I aspire to what she said.

For an even better example than I of living out what it means to be a follower of Jesus in today’s world, take a look at Triskadecamus. And this is the right season for it; in real life he looks physically like Santa Claus – and his behavior is that of a living saint. He’s who I look up to when I need an example of Christian living in Anno Domini 2007.

Depending on what circles you belong to, you might be running into Christians every day. In the work environment, there are many “closet Christians” who are quiet about their faith. This is for many reasons, including not wanting to be judged based on the actions of a few loud ones. I have been in that position, where I did not discuss my faith because I did not want people making assumptions about me based on stereotypical Evangelical behaviour.

The Progressive Christian movement fights the stereotype of the judgemental right-wing Bible thumper by being more public about their faith and public actions. Others simply hide their faith for fear that they will be painted with the broad brush used on Falwell, Robertson, etc. Jimmy Carter has helped show that you can be a devout Christian and be on the other side of the political fence.

Finally, all of us who consider ourselves Christians know that we are far from perfect. We WANT to follow in Christ’s footsteps, but we are not always able or willing to make the sacrifice.

Sounds as if you’d admire Christ if you met him. All the rest of us imperfect folk don’t get much slack. :wink:

Yeah, as others have said, I’ve met quite a few folks who are doing a pretty good job of living consistently with Christian values. In nearly every case, however, they are far quieter about their faith than folks who use their beliefs to justify their prejudices, or who appear to believe that their faith merits them to some special privileges. In many instances, if you looked into the people you just consider “nice” people who are active in their community and supportive of charitable causes, you will find a christian.

Of course, you will also find people who are just acting that way because they consider that the appropriate way to act. They may belong to a non-christian faith, or no faith at all. So when you say you would “admire” a christian, would the motivation for their behavior affect your admiration of them? Do you admire a “moral” christian more, less, or the same as a “moral” atheist?

To use a ridiculous extreme, would you “admire” an individual if they acted consistent with what you consider Jesus’ message because that was how he was instructed to act by the aliens who were sending him messages?

Personally, I would more likely admire someone who acted admirably because they decided that was the proper way to act, rather than someone who did it in hopes that they would get into heaven and avoid hell. Or someone who was too limited to understand that there was adequate basis for moral behavior than divine stricture. I have met plenty of supposed “christians” who appear to be acting well only under duress, and only in certain circumstances.

But I think the true christians I have met lead good lives somewhat independent of their ideas of heaven and hell. To large respect, they follow a particular faith because it is consistent with the way they believe a moral individual should act in society, rather than the other way around, styling their life to reflect their religion’s teachings.

So - yes - I will respect their lifestyle, even if I do not fully respect the fact that they have chosen to accept an irrational belief.

Bingo.

Where did Jesus say not to defend yourself?

My in-laws are quiet Christians who live their beliefs and never give me a hard time about being an atheist. As a result, I ask them to say grace before family meals when they visit.

“28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.” Luke 6: 28-30

It’s also in Matthew.

Mosier There are believers in Christ Jesus that are far more dedicated then most people who self define themselves as Christian. They are not perfect but try to live their life surrendered to the Holy Spirit. Finding such a group is difficult, actually impossible unless the Father draws you, is it a inner circle where the fruit of the Spirit is displayed (love, mercy, ect.).

There is the part of not judging others, but also the part about helping others who are in sin. I do think many Christians go a bit astray at times with these 2 that sometimes appear to conflict. The gifts of the Spirit are distributed to believers according to the will of God, not all believers get every gift, but sometimes the ego of a believer gets in the way and then try to do good, but act in the flesh and not the Spirit and fail

You mention homosexuality. My view on it is that is it a form of spiritual (no pun intended) bondage. It seems to work in the world but if a person travels from darkness to light they will have to honestly and openly deal with this between themselves, what they want for their life, and God. I don’t think it’s helpful to say it’s a sin, for even if the homosexual agrees and stops in action and thought and never does that again it does not save them. The way seems to be to show the love of Jesus, let them experience that and if they desire it they will make the trip, Jesus will change any person to His image over time if the person allows it.

I think it was the “turn the other cheek” thing.

In Matthew 5:38-44

38"You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor* and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[c] and pray for those who persecute you…*

I think that is your answer, right there. I wouldn’t say “anyone”, but most people.

Take the whole “turn the other cheek” thing. Would it really be a good thing to do if someone was killing your family? Can you really love your enemies and expect that they won’t slaughter you?

As much as we might like to think that we could live according to Jesus’s message, we’re just not that type of animal. And frankly, I don’t see anything wrong with that. His ideas are a great way to start, but I wouldn’t die just in order to live according to the way He wanted us to. But then, I’m not a believer. :slight_smile:

What about the less gentle-and-meek aspects of Christian doctrine, though? Not only does the OP ignore the Old Testament, it also conveniently forgets the New, which has plenty of exhoratations to cast out evil both individually and from a spiritual group. (I do hope you were joking when you implied that intolerance for homosexuality is inconsistent with Christianity). The Bible is not exclusively tolerant; it preaches forgiveness of the sins of others, but doesn’t enjoin believers to ignore or disbelieve in the sinfulness of sins, nor to cease struggling against it.

And of course, there’s the whole “I bring not peace but a sword” business.

Jesus wasn’t exclisively nonviolent, either. Flipping over tables, cursing trees to death (for not having fruit off-season!).

Sure, he may have been justified with the money changers, but I’d definately call that violence. No one’s ever explained the fig tree to me.

You could call it a visual aid. It appears in the same chapter as the money lenders thing, and was meant to illustrate how the temple was no longer “bearing fruit”. Here’s a pretty good explanation of that.

J.C. really loved his metaphors.