Are they’re alot of pissed off Spanish speakers complaining about lack of Spanish proficiency in the US? I see a lot of savvy companies doing it for a profit motive. I see governments doing for legal reasons and reasons to encourage more public involvement. The only pissed off folks about language seem to be the English only side.
Oh bullshit. You dislike people that don’t cow tow to your English only version of the US.
BTW your German might come in handy where I live. I swear that I hear it more than Spanish. I guess that if I was more “American” then I’d be pissed at all those damned Mennonites. Dressing different, speaking different, playing that funny music on the radio…un-American, no assimilating bastards :mad:
Yes, there are a lot of pissed off people. Pissed that in many cases the English speakers are supposed to learn Spanish, while the Spanish speakers are forgiven their lack of effort in learning English when making a concsious choice to come to the US. I realize learning a new language is difficult no matter the age, but why is it more likely for someone from Sudan to immerse themselves and learn English to assimilate than someone whose native tongue is a related language?
Is English the dominant language? Seems to be. Though not an official language as we have none. Let the debate continue, as it will. I won’t say the Republic is under threat in any way, but it seems to me that if someone sees the US as the Crown Jewel, they may work to learn the dominant language.
I’m not calling for people to give up their native tongue, I’m simply calling for people to work at attempting to master the dominant language of the country they move to rather than demanding their native language be incorporated in every facet of life.
I’ll let this go as soon as I get some support for English-version forms/notices in countries that Americans have emigtrated to. Unless anyone can give me an example of a more unifying concept than language, I’ll happily suffer the shit-slinging in saying success in a country you move to is based almost exclusively on speaking the language.
And yes, it does matter to some jobs. If there is a need for Spanish speakers and you don’t speak Spanish, you’re out on your ass because you didn’t learn the language.
Forget the fact that some refuse to learn to communicate in English, they know that with numbers comes power, and learning English is optional. Why learn the language when you can disregard it and know the rest will cater to you?
Do NOT, under any circumstance, ever imply what you are implying again. You seem to be taking a preconceived notion of my motives and running wild with it. Re-read the OP. I have no problem with immigration, and you are pissing me the fuck off with your implication.
Can you get it through your thick fucking skull that immigration and basic communication are different?
Wait, look who I’m asking.
I didn’t ask for an English-only version of the US, douchebag. I was lamenting the lack of effort in people learning English when coming to the US. And the expectation, thanks to support by assholes like you, to not feel the need to learn English, but rather a feeling everyone else will just have to learn Spanish and deal with it.
You’re part of the problem. And I feel lessened by even replying to you.
And probably a lot less likely to assimilate than Mexicans and other Latin Americans, too. But duffer’s German might not help you as much as you think. They’re mostly speaking Plattdietsch, not proper Deutsch (though most of them speak proper Deutsch as well, as church services are generally held in High German).
Again, that doesn’t really seem to be true. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7372548&postcount=9
What part of reality are you having trouble dealing with, exactly?
Do you expect monolingual non-english speaking adults to learn English quickly or with any great facility? That’s just unrealistic. It won’t happen, because monolingual adults suck at learning languages. Be unhappy about this all you want, it’s not going to change. You might as well rail at the sky for being blue.
Do you expect businesses not to cater to part of their potential customer base? That’s just stupid. They’re not going to turn down money. If that means they won’t hire you as a monolingual English-speaker for a customer service job, deal with it. Or learn Spanish. What, it’s too hard, because you’re a monolingual adult who sucks at learning languages? Oooooh, irony!
Or you can continue to ignore the people informing you that in fact Spanish-speaking immigrants are learning English as fast or faster than other immigrants have throughout US history, making your ranting a lot of uninformed ignorance.
Really? I speak English almost all the time, and my Spanish sucks.
It’s funny. I live in a town that is 39.6% Hispanic. They are Mexicans, primarily German Mennonites, here all the time. And at retail establishments around town, if there isn’t a German there, only the oldest Hispanic employees speak good enough Spanish to communicate well with them (if they don’t speak English which most do to at least some extent).
Didn’t even make it past this part. No, I’m not expecting people to learn the Queen’s English in 2 weeks. I do expect at least an effort. Not an effort to have any conceivable service be bilingual by default. A simple effort to learn the language of the home country you decide to move to.
Reread the OP. I had ancestors that got here, immersed themselves into the host language and did everything they could to adopt it as the sole language. Including avoiding using the native language even in the home. It was English, it was practiced, and it helped in the betterment of their lot in life.
I have no problem with dual-language households, many white-bred racists do it. (Well, it’s what many are thinking of me at this point.) What my gripe is about is that it seems many think thier native language is good enough, and fuck all to the people of the country they come to.
Step back a moment and think about this. If any group of immigrants speaking anything but Spanish demanded all government forms, info lines, etc be printed in their native tongue, would that be acceptable? Should we just accept that anyone that wants to be a citizen should be exempt from learning how to communicate?
I have a feeling what the answer will be from some. To those I ask, would you be accepting of service in Klingon? You damn well better be, English is optional.
So, given that people are telling you over and over again that the fact of the matter is that Spanish-speaking immigrants to the US are learning English at a rate higher than most other historical groups of immigrants, what the fuck is your problem??? Are you denying that? Or are you saying that the fastest-assimilating group in history isn’t assimilating fast enough?
If I either chose to move to a country that spoke a vastly different language, or was forced to, you can bet that my primary objective would be effective communication. If I made the determination that I was going to live there for either a long time, or for the rest of my life, I’d be damn sure to learn the language as quick as I could.
I can speak enough Spanish to sound like a confused eight year old Mexican, I think I know more Spanish swear words than the average eight year old Mexicano though. If I lived in Mexico, I’d not go to the stores and restaurants that spoke English exclusively. I would, at times, avoid them to facilitate immersion in the language. They would be a welcome refuge when I got tired of struggling though.
Unless I’m wrong, the OP is more about lazy, non-English-speaking people. Immigrants are fine, try to do it legally if possible. People that speak one language, move to another country that primarily speaks another language, and refuse to learn the predominant language, are lazy bastards. That is, once they’ve been here for a few years.
IMO, if after time, you’ve not learned the local language, you’re either dumb, lazy, beligerant, or co-dependent on an English speaker.
English is a unique language in this regard, because so many countries adopt it for business purposes. I wonder if there are Saudis that complain about the Japanese people not speaking their language.
Learning English is important, but assimilation shouldn’t be mandatory.
I bet very few people got this. Maynard would be happy though.
Maybe I can make quoting myself my “thing”. Perhaps not.
So, Duffer, your company wants to make money by catering to Spanish-speaking customers (including those who speak English perfectly well but prefer something more familiar when dealing with technical issues), and therefore English/Spanish bilingual employees have an advantage, and you’re not one, so you’re comparatively less valuable to your company than other people, including (gasp!) immigrants who have learned English just like you said you wanted them to, and therefore your job at a customer support center is in jeopardy? And your solution is to force your company’s customers to speak only English, just so the people who have mastered two or more languages aren’t as much of a threat to you any more? I think that’s just a super idea.
But your’re limiting yourself unnecessarily. If you can force your company’s customers to take tranquilizers or do yoga before calling, then employees who are more patient and forebearing or skilled than you won’t be a threat to you either. If you can figure out how to make your company’s customers adapt to your preferred mode of worship, you and they will have a coreligious bond that will make them more forgiving and that your employer will be reluctant to disrupt – more protection for you. And don’t forget, while you’re busy telling immigrants to learn English, there are hosts of people who have no intention of moving here but are learning English anyway, the sneaks. If you don’t do something about them quick, your job could be outsourced tomorrow.
Unlike my Jamaica-born ex-bf, who was British when I met him and started complaining about immigrants to his Spanish girlfriend within a week of being sworn in as a citizen.
Yup, no integration at all.
Side note: I speak English quite well, but there are situations where I revert to Spanish or where my English will simply never be good enough. I have to look up in a dictionary terms like “angioplastia” - I’d have to look up “angioplasty” (of however it’s in English) as well. Any dictionary that’s big enough for me weighs in excess of 5 pounds and I just refuse to carry one on me the whole time. And I’ve mentioned before how many people simply think their “foreign” is worse than it is, and are afraid to speak wrong and add to the confusion/get wallet-rapped/etc. We’ve heard why the Mirandas are called the Mirandas, you see…
So, were you planning to acknowledge the claims that modern immigrants are becoming bilingual at least as fast or faster than previous immigrant groups? Or were you going to ignore anything resembling a fact in favour of your usual stupid, boring rant?
“I’ve got nothing against immigrants, but…”
But your ignorance.
Has duffer or anybody else in this thread provided even a shred of evidence that these Spanish-speaking call centers and such-like are being set up to serve people who refuse to learn English, rather than people who are learning English but just aren’t very good at it yet?
Hell, I’ve lived here in the Netherlands for two years, and I certainly haven’t “refused to learn Dutch”—my acquisition has been slow because so many people here speak English and I work in English all day, but I do my best. I’m fairly fluent in reading by now, but still very slow in conversation.
So when I need help from a support center or bureaucratic office or something, you bet your ass I always start out with “Mag ik Engels spreken?” Why should I make us both suffer through my awkward Dutch if they can deal with me more efficiently and effectively in English, with much better odds that I’ll understand them correctly?
Am I a lazy non-assimilating bum who’s trying to sabotage the careers of non-anglophone Dutch speakers? Well, no. I just haven’t mastered the language yet.
I think it’s been amply demonstrated to you here that most Spanish-speaking immigrants do make that effort. And while they’re making that effort, why shouldn’t companies decide to make a buck by providing services that they’ll find useful, such as Spanish-speaking customer support?
Sounds to me like you haven’t bothered to keep your skillset current to cope with changing business opportunities, and you’re trying to blame the customer base for the resulting threat to your career prospects.
I’m sure there were secretaries back in the early 1980’s who never thought they’d see the day when their jobs would be in jeopardy because they could use a typewriter. Guess what, business opportunities change due to changing social and technological conditions, and employees need to prepare for those changes by acquiring new skills.
Exactly. That’s why I’ve been working so hard to become literate in Algonquian languages.
What is a native American?