Idiotic Orthodox Jewish Tradition Leads to Death of Seven Children

[SJL4041]

Another New York Times article about the aftermath in the community: http://nyti.ms/1NkyV09

@New York Times

“Basically, everyone is trying to figure out what should they do this Sabbath,” said Edgar Gluck, a prominent rabbi in Borough Park who has been helping to counsel people. He personally uses a hot plate, he said, but places it on a granite countertop, next to a stainless-steel sink, and feels that it is safe.

While I’m sympathetic to the argument that probably a lot more people die in car accidents on the way to religious services, it’s clear that 1) overnight hot plate usage is unique to this religious community 2) they aren’t changing their behavior much based on this tragedy 3) it isn’t just “poor people who don’t know any better” – look at the quotes in the article, these are prominent people in the community saying, well, we’re going to leave the stove on all night.

[Lobohan]

@SJL4041

Another New York Times article about the aftermath in the community: http://nyti.ms/1NkyV09

While I’m sympathetic to the argument that probably a lot more people die in car accidents on the way to religious services, it’s clear that 1) overnight hot plate usage is unique to this religious community 2) they aren’t changing their behavior much based on this tragedy 3) it isn’t just “poor people who don’t know any better” – look at the quotes in the article, these are prominent people in the community saying, well, we’re going to leave the stove on all night.

Holy shit. That’s worse than I thought. And I was the bitchy negative guy.

[johnpost]

the risk of having a drunken driver hit you on christmas and having a hotplate (only designed for attended short, few hours at the most, use) start a fire after being on a full day are orders of magnitude apart. the hotplate even comes with a printed warning because it is such a hazard.

they might have equivalence in they are both a risk connected to religion.

to argue they are the same, because of the orders of magnitude difference of the risks, is just foolish.

[Annie-Xmas]

I work in a store that is frequented by a large population of Orthodox Jews (and Christians, Muslims, atheists, and other people). This has been the talk of the community.

My Old New England ancestors, those Christian Puritans, followed the same prohibition against working on the Saturday Sabbath. A heck of a lot of the Orthodox Jewish people did not know this. And their bean dish cholent is a kosher version of New England pork and beans.

NO Jewish law says you have to eat hot food on the Sabbath. This was an unfortunate accident that could have been prevented without breaking the laws.

[DSeid]

@SJL4041

Another New York Times article about the aftermath in the community: http://nyti.ms/1NkyV09

While I’m sympathetic to the argument that probably a lot more people die in car accidents on the way to religious services, it’s clear that 1) overnight hot plate usage is unique to this religious community 2) they aren’t changing their behavior much based on this tragedy 3) it isn’t just “poor people who don’t know any better” – look at the quotes in the article, these are prominent people in the community saying, well, we’re going to leave the stove on all night.

It is interesting to me that we can read the same article and see such different things.

Everyone has, as a result of this tragedy, checked their smoke alarms and made sure they are in working order.

Many people are switching to a timer system that turns off a hot plate overnight while the family is asleep.

These are significant changes in behavior.

Everyone is trying to assess if what they are personally doing represents a meaningful risk or not. Whether or not you or I agree with their risk assessment is immaterial; we both might think that the rabbi who thinks that leaving a hot plate on overnight is safe so long as it is on a granite or metal surface is very mistaken but whether it is or not that (presumptively) poor judgment is the problem, not the religious belief.

Honestly, I have to say I don’t know exactly how risky a hot plate left on is. Yes, there was this tragedy so it certainly is not risk free … but does anyone actually have any numbers of how electrical shorts per how many hundreds of thousands of hours of use? How much more risky is it than leaving a similar wattage plasma screen tv on overnight? Or running the clothes dryer unattended overnight? Or an electric room heater left on while people are asleep? Statements that “everyone knows” or “there is a warning label” do not actually help quantify the risk.

Part of our human piss poor risk assessment skills is that we overweight the risk of a rare event in the immediate aftermath of that event.
Let’s take a different angle, one that exposes me to charges of ignorant risk taking.

I’m a recreational cook. I have left a stockpot on over a low open flame overnight and while out of the house picking up other ingredients I still needed and not previously thought twice about it. Honestly I still think of that as a low risk action. I think lots of family cooks have done the same thing. Why do I sometimes make my own stock? Because I have a belief that it tastes better to me. (Others may think this absurd, just as some think that the Orthodox belief that life for them is better following what they believe to be God’s Laws is absurd. All I can say is that you haven’t tasted the soup!) Why do I leave it on overnight or while I go out to run another errand? Convenience. Nothing about my homemade preference belief requires me to leave it on overnight or while I leave the house. I, and many other cooks, have never thought the risk was significant is all. I am not poor and am well educated. I am rarely called stupid other than by my wife.

If there is a fire from my or other cooks’ low flame cooking stock overnight or unattended (and surely there must have been at least one) is it a) a tragedy b) idiotic home-made food beliefs causing a fire c) ignorant risk assessment or d) other?

[Pedro]

@DSeid

IHonestly, I have to say I don’t know exactly how risky a hot plate left on is. Yes, there was this tragedy so it certainly is not risk free … but does anyone actually have any numbers of how electrical shorts per how many hundreds of thousands of hours of use? How much more risky is it than leaving a similar wattage plasma screen tv on overnight? Or running the clothes dryer unattended overnight? Or an electric room heater left on while people are asleep? Statements that “everyone knows” or “there is a warning label” do not actually help quantify the risk.

I don’t think electrical shorts are the issue. Hot plates are designed to heat food, not maintain a steady temperature. The risk is overheating. They require supervision, like a stove. Any system where there is constant input of energy requires a feedback loop to prevent accidents. The human provides the feedback in this case.

[Pedro]

@DSeid

If there is a fire from my or other cooks’ low flame cooking stock overnight or unattended (and surely there must have been at least one) is it a) a tragedy b) idiotic home-made food beliefs causing a fire c) ignorant risk assessment or d) other?

I missed this part. I’m going with c).

[Lobohan]

I was expecting to see a ton of contrite apologies by now. Since, you know, many members of that backwards sect do the exact same thing, and we’ve been getting page after page of, “It’s not the religion that made her burn her kids to death, it’s like a lamp, hyuk hyuk.” horseshit.

But no, actual cult-leaders do the same fucking thing. So, how about it, can we blame the shitty religion now? Please?

[DSeid]

From what I’ve read the presumption was an electrical short, not the food igniting from being overheated, although no one knows for sure. According to the fire commissioner
the plate allegedly malfunctioned.

Be that as it may - you ignore the actual question: how big is the actual risk other than “not a good idea”? I really don’t know. Saying that no reasonable person would do that is fine but is not actually based on anything. How stupid are cooks who say take a nap while the stock is cooking? Is any cook who has ever taken a nap while something is cooking over a low flame on the stove, let alone left a stock on overnight or while doing an errand, unreasonably stupid and ignorant?

[DSeid]

Okay Pedro if I am ignorant please tell me how large the risk actually is. I can tell I am not alone in doing this and many expert cooks advise cooking stock overnight. Yeah the actual cooking cult leaders do the same fucking thing and even advise it.

Why not b for this but b for the hot plate? I am cooking a stock for many hours because of a belief in the superiority of my home cooking (absurd to some … okay including a few who have tasted my soup). The cooking over low while I sleep is done out of convenience and because I do not actually believe it is risky.

Where is the outrage at the cult of home cooking?

[SenorBeef]

Ah good, we’ve gone from “this lady is an outlier, she made such a stupid decision that no one else could reasonably think that a reasonable person following her religion could make a similar mistake, and so the religious motivaton is blameless, it’s all about her stupidity” to “Leaving a hotplate on is fine. Everyone leaves fire starting materials unattended in their house constantly. Cars are dangerous too.”

Edit: This shift came after revealing, of course, that it was not uncommon among that community. Which is an obvious pattern of apologistics.

[Pedro]

@DSeid

From what I’ve read the presumption was an electrical short, not the food igniting from being overheated, although no one knows for sure. According to the fire commissioner
the plate allegedly malfunctioned.

The food or the hot plate itself or anything combustible nearby. No one knows for sure but a malfunction doesn’t have to be a short, if indeed it malfunctioned.

Be that as it may - you ignore the actual question: how big is the actual risk other than “not a good idea”? I really don’t know. Saying that no reasonable person would do that is fine but is not actually based on anything. How stupid are cooks who say take a nap while the stock is cooking? Is any cook who has ever taken a nap while something is cooking over a low flame on the stove, let alone left a stock on overnight or while doing an errand, unreasonably stupid and ignorant?

What is the relevance of these questions? These people were improperly using hot plates because their god forbids them from flicking electrical switches. What more do you need to call this idiotic? The fact that some kids died just makes the stupidity of it all more pointed.

[SenorBeef]

Huh, I just looked up the dictionary definition since apologetics isn’t quite the word I wanted, and apparently apologetics is applied specifically to the defense of Christianity, so I’m misusing the term.

What’s the best term when someone is determined to defend a group or action no matter what without being willing to critically examine whether the argument at hand is meritous or not, switching tactics when one is becoming more obviously flimsy?

[Pedro]

@DSeid

Okay Pedro if I am ignorant please tell me how large the risk actually is. I can tell I am not alone in doing this and many expert cooks advise cooking stock overnight. Yeah the actual cooking cult leaders do the same fucking thing and even advise it.

Why not b for this but b for the hot plate? I am cooking a stock for many hours because of a belief in the superiority of my home cooking (absurd to some … okay including a few who have tasted my soup). The cooking over low while I sleep is done out of convenience and because I do not actually believe it is risky.

Where is the outrage at the cult of home cooking?

If you really care about this tangent, that’s for you to decide. Personally I’m not confortable leaving a stove cooking overnight, even at a very low setting. It’s “probably” safe, with a lot of ifs attached, but risk is a factor of potential loss versus potential reward. What’s the reward of overnight cooking versus a catastrophic fire?

[DSeid]

It’s not a tangent.

The issue remains that the religion is not the issue but the decision to leave a hot plate on unattended.

Now that decision, most here accept without debate, was a bad one, and that conclusion is easy to accept in face of the fire that occurred. My point is however that taking similar or greater levels of risk (well hard to say since the level of risk is actually something no one knows) for the sake of convenience is something many of us do in service of other beliefs.

“Hi. My name is DSeid” “Hi DSeid.” “I take certain, I believe small, risks for the sake of convenience.”

I have a belief that some do not agree with. My belief is that my home cooked stock makes for superior eating that enhances the quality of life for both me and my family.

The Haradim have a belief that many do not agree with. Their belief is that living as closely as possible to what they understand to be God’s Laws as written (and as interpreted by Talmudic scholars) enhances their and their families’ quality of life in a very deep and to them very meaningful way. More disagree with them than disagree that my soup is good eatin’ but the meaning it has to their quality of life is much greater. A wash.

My belief motivates me to (on occasion) make stock. I could make stock in a as close to possible completely safe way and watch it the entire time it is cooking. My belief in homemade stock would be just fine with that. Or I might, as I do, judge that leaving it simmer for hours unattended is of small risk, and do that, because it makes life easier. Some, like you Pedro will disagree that the risk is small.

The Haradim’s belief motivates them to not light a fire on Shabbat. They could eat cold food. Their belief would be completely fine with that. Or they might, as many Haredim do, judge that certain means of keeping food warm for the period of time, less than simmering, are of small risk, and do that, because it makes life easier. Some (many, immediately after a fire has occurred) will disagree that the risk is small.

They are pretty much the same thing. What I do many other cooks do and many cooking experts advise doing as well.

Whether or not you believe leaving a stockpot simmer for hours unattended is unduly and unreasonably risky, is a fire “sparked” by an unattended stockpot caused by the belief (idiotic, absurd, or otherwise) that home cooking is superior eatin’?

SB, I propose the phrase you are looking for is “SenorBeefing it”

[doreen]

@SenorBeef

Ah good, we’ve gone from “this lady is an outlier, she made such a stupid decision that no one else could reasonably think that a reasonable person following her religion could make a similar mistake, and so the religious motivaton is blameless, it’s all about her stupidity”

I don’t recall anyone saying that this woman is an outlier or that leaving a hot plate on overnight was uncommon in her community. What has been said is that the religious requirement prevents her from cooking on the Sabbath. It does not mandate that she leave a hotplate on for 24 hours. There is no mandate that hot meals be eaten. There is no mandate that the food cannot be kept warm in an oven or a crockpot or on a low flame under a blech - all of which eliminate at least one danger I see with a hot plate, the danger of some other object touching it and igniting. Apparently, it’s even permissible to use a hot plate with a timer to turn it off at night and back on in the morning. It may be that everyone in her community uses a hot plate- but that makes it a custom or a tradition not a religious requirement.

I’m going to try with an example from a different religion. I am a Roman Catholic. On certain days, I am required to abstain from meat. That’s all I am required to do- abstain from meat. I can eat seafood, or I can eat eggs or I can have a vegetarian meal or I can eat cereal and milk. It doesn’t matter- any one of those suffices just as well as the others. If I chose to have eggs, and choose to have them sunnyside up and get salmonella , my illness is not the result of the religious requirement. It’s the result of how I chose to fufill it. And it doesn’t matter if my family and lots of people in our neighborhood have been eating sunnyside up eggs on Fridays for four generations - it’s still not the religious requirement that caused my illness, but rather the way I chose to fufill it.

[Pedro]

@DSeid

Whether or not you believe leaving a stockpot simmer for hours unattended is unduly and unreasonably risky, is a fire “sparked” by an unattended stockpot caused by the belief (idiotic, absurd, or otherwise) that home cooking is superior eatin’?

Indirectly caused, you could say so, yes. I’m just a sustenance cook but I think tasty food is great so count me in on your religion.

[Lobohan]

@doreen

I don’t recall anyone saying that this woman is an outlier or that leaving a hot plate on overnight was uncommon in her community. What has been said is that the religious requirement prevents her from cooking on the Sabbath. It does not mandate that she leave a hotplate on for 24 hours. There is no mandate that hot meals be eaten. There is no mandate that the food cannot be kept warm in an oven or a crockpot or on a low flame under a blech - all of which eliminate at least one danger I see with a hot plate, the danger of some other object touching it and igniting. Apparently, it’s even permissible to use a hot plate with a timer to turn it off at night and back on in the morning. It may be that everyone in her community uses a hot plate- but that makes it a custom or a tradition not a religious requirement.

I’m going to try with an example from a different religion. I am a Roman Catholic. On certain days, I am required to abstain from meat. That’s all I am required to do- abstain from meat. I can eat seafood, or I can eat eggs or I can have a vegetarian meal or I can eat cereal and milk. It doesn’t matter- any one of those suffices just as well as the others. If I chose to have eggs, and choose to have them sunnyside up and get salmonella , my illness is not the result of the religious requirement. It’s the result of how I chose to fufill it. And it doesn’t matter if my family and lots of people in our neighborhood have been eating sunnyside up eggs on Fridays for four generations - it’s still not the religious requirement that caused my illness, but rather the way I chose to fufill it.

I’m not sure why several people think, “It’s not a requirement to eat hot meals.” is a cogent argument.

No shit. We fucking know. The requirement is to not flip switches. The reason they ate hot meals, is that human fucking beings prefer hot meals.

The reason they do the inherently stupid action, leaving hotplates unattended, is that they want to eat hot meals, and obey the stupid fucking religious rule at the same time.

Jesus people. The blindness that the reflexive kowtowing to religion instills in people is scary as fuck. Just because you want to respect their beliefs, doesn’t mean they’re worth respect. They have the right to their beliefs. Not the right to demand that others respect the beliefs themselves. Otherwise the Klan is hunkey-dory.

[Locrian]

@psychobunny

We are going to have to agree to disagree. You will never convince me that this accident was caused by anything other than a woman either ignorantly or carelessly leaving a hotplate on because she wanted to keep food warm for her family-even though her religion

-does NOT mandate that you serve hot food
-does NOT indicate that you should use a hotplate rather than another potentially safer method of keeping food warm
-does NOT forbid the use of smoke detectors

She chose to follow the requirements of her religion in a way that was unsafe while many others choose to follow the same religion without putting their children at risk.

In my mind, the woman, not the religion is to blame. But go ahead and blame the religion if it makes you feel better or superior.

ONE question, PB…

If this lady wasn’t religiously misled, would she have had the hot plate on for so long?

I’ll help. The answer is NO. She could be feeble, insane, or just pleasantly confused about hot plate operation, but it was left on because her understanding of the sabbath requires this.

Why are we focusing on one lady in this house? There’s, what, six other people who live there? Why didn’t they unplug it either? Respect for the woman’s belief’s? The sabbath is entirely stupid and shouldn’t be followed by anyone if it causes this much confusion as to how to act on such a pointless time of the week.

[doreen]

@Lobohan

I’m not sure why several people think, “It’s not a requirement to eat hot meals.” is a cogent argument.

No shit. We fucking know. The requirement is to not flip switches. The reason they ate hot meals, is that human fucking beings prefer hot meals.

The reason they do the inherently stupid action, leaving hotplates unattended, is that they want to eat hot meals, and obey the stupid fucking religious rule at the same time.

And there are other ways they can obey the rules- just like there are other ways for me to abstain from meat on Friday other than eating sunnyside up eggs. But you don’t address my example at all. Why it should be blamed on the religious rules rather blamed on than indulging a preference for hot meals *and *choosing a hot plate as the means to provide it.You just act as if the choice to indulge a preference for hot meals and the choice of method has nothing to do with anything- it’s not as though people never eat cold meals. (I suspect most people eat a few a week) or that people don’t use crockpots (which were basically invented for this purpose) . The fire wouldn’t have happened if she hadn’t been following the religious rule- and it also wouldn’t have happened if she had decided to serve a salad topped with previously grilled chicken for lunch or if she had used a crockpot rather than a hot plate. And the kids would probably be alive ift there had been working smoke detectors. Four decisions- to follow the rules, to serve a hot meal, to use a hot plate rather than a safer method , to not have working smoke detectors - all played a part in this tragedy. If any one had been different , the results would have been different , yet you put the blame on only one decision. Why? I suspect I know- because you think religion is stupid and the desire for a hot meal is not and plenty of non-Sabbath observers don’t have working smoke detectors so of course it must be solely the fault of the religious rule.