No, claiming it can’t happen here is ludicrous. There is nothing all that special about America; any country can descend into tyranny. In fact, I consider America especially vulnerable because of the “America is special” attitude; it’s much easier to do something if people think it’s impossible, and therefore won’t try to stop you.
What are you talking about, precisely?
The Roman Republic bears almost no similarity to what we would describe as a democratic form of government.
Frankly, if this suspension of the Constitution required military force to be imposed, I don’t think he would be obeyed. American soldiers, like pretty much all soldiers, have a strong authoritarian streak, it goes with the territory. But they are American soldiers. Not Russians, not Germans and, Lord God, not Italians, for cryin’ out loud!
Not really true at all with regard to the “strong authoritarian sreak.”
Don’t forget even Lincoln wasn’t above suspending habeus corpus. The current president managed to grant himself the right to conduct warrantless wiretapping and torturing suspects. If one could shred parts of the Constitution after a puny attack that killed 3,000 people, is it that much a stretch to think a president would shred all of it after a much more massive attack?
With Rumsfeld running the show, this fight would turn into another Iraq.
The Rumster would revert to type, making mistakes on top of blunders on top of hideously moronic decisions, such that our civilian militias and guerrillas would kick the shit out of our armed forces.
Then when the dust settled and Georgie, Dickie, Condi and Donnie are hauled into court for their just deserts, the defense would be precisely as you’d expect. “It was all Clinton’s fault.”
And as one, the far right would nod their heads in solemn agreement.
I, meanwhile, will be at the local TAB with my mates, drinking beer and taking bets. 
Let’s be honest here, folks. In the event that El Presidente (Whoever) decides that the Constitution Of The United States Of America now carries the legal weight of a Harry Potter novel, he’d either be impeached or assassinated (possibly both) before the week was out.
All this talk of “Defending the Constitution from its enemies” is paranoid bullshit.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d say some of you want your survivalist fantasies to come true- just like back in the day there were extremists who wanted the Commies to invade so they could bust out their M-16 and shoot themselves some Reds, it seems there are people now who want The Government to declare that the Constitution of the US Is No Longer Applicable so they can bust out their M-16s and shoot themselves some Camo Dudes. It’s just fucked up, and it’s not healthy.
I’m sure your average Roman didn’t sit around polishing his Gladius and hoping that the Carthaginians or the Huns or the Vandals really would invade so they could go and single-handedly fight off hordes of troops as they waded ashore at Naples Harbour, or how many Legionaries they’d take out with their Pila when Caesar crossed the Rubicon.
Hopefully we’ll never have to find out what happens if the US finds itself under permanent Martial Law. But if it did happen, I suspect it would be more like the day-to-day life of people seen in V for Vendetta (which really wasn’t much different from now, except for the curfew and the being careful what you said to strangers) than something out of The Postman or Mad Max.
Martini Enfield, when that quality of insight appears fully formed, Aphrodite-like, it is no wonder at all that the next President of the United States is talking about her plans for universal health care and a government assisted higher education loans scheme.
Barn Owl, while it is true that Shodan’s little aside was unnecessary at that point in the thread, you will note that I did not challenge him on the accuracy of his observation, just its appropriateness to this thread. You have now demonstrated that his observation was correct, even if prematurely voiced.
Everybody: if you want to debate the hypothetical of the OP, please do so. If everyone is going to sit around posting facetious claims regarding the likelihood of the OP’s premise, then I’m sending this over to IMHO where no one has to actually defend a logically constructed argument.
<ahem-ahem-ahem>Genocide of Native Americans</ahem-ahem-ahem>
And that applies to the discussion how?
I know there a lot of Bush haters here, but how many "What if Bush: killed all dems, was gay, burned the constitution, started concentration camps nukes the entire world, sold our women into white slavery" threads do we need? ARRRRRRR.
I am a military Officer, a liberal Republican. Voted for Bush once, not twice. Having said that I love the country in all its flavors, all of the country, liberals, conservative, black white, straight gay, what have you. Why do we think all the military are mindless drones, incapable of thought, we have just chomping at the bit to start concentration camps and kill democracy as we know it? We are the same people that you went to high school with, and see at PTA meeting.
Second, we have over 200 years of democratic, individual freedom tradition. Why are you so confident we'd chick all that because a President with approval ratings of 35% said we should, which, btw he has not.
R
In that soldiers being America doesn’t mean they cannot do horrifying things, that’s how.
So I’m a better prophet than you wanted to admit.
Then I will begin by pointing out that, the very instant Foley’s attempts at seduction became public knowledge, he was out the door. A Bush speech announcing the suspension of the Constitution, or any actions to that end, would be even more public.
That having been said, here’s Tuckerfan’s scenario again -
As I see it playing out, it runs like this -
[ul][li]Bush holds a press conference announcing that he is suspending the Constitution. []The press follows up, the same afternoon, interviewing Congressional leaders to get their reaction. []Said reaction is universally negative. No Congressperson of either party expresses any support. []Bush issuses orders telling the military to arrest the members of Congress who oppose the suspension.[]All the military refuse to obey those orders.[]Bush orders the Secret Service to arrest the military.[]The Secret Service refuses to obey.[]By noon at the very latest of the day after Bush made his announcement, Congress has passed articles of impeachment. The vote in the House is 435-0.[]Republican leaders in Congress meet with Bush and advise him to step down. []Bush refuses.[]By noon of the day after that, the Senate has removed Bush from office. The vote is 100-0. []Cheney takes over, rescinds the order suspending the Constitution, and the Secret Service arrests Bush. []Bush is admitted to an inpatient chemical dependency treatment facility, under heavy guard.[/ul][/li]
How improbable do you need to make the scenario before you can posit civil war breaking out or something? Lissa claims that nobody will care because they are too busy watching TV. That’s pretty self-evidently wrong - the somewhat-less-than-half-but-still-a-pretty-good-sized-minority who voted for Kerry are going to look the other way on this? Because of one fucking car bomb?
Come on - it is essentially impossible and we still had a shit load of threads about how Bush was going to cancel the elections in 2004.
Unless you want to play “Suppose Bush was elected with 80% of the vote - could he get away with it then?” That is more or less saying that, if things were different, then they wouldn’t be the same.
Regards,
Shodan
“American”.
:smack:
What is your evidence for this assertion? On September 12th did we nuke anyone? Did Bush suspend or imprison Congress? Did he shut done the media? I know you hate Bush. But why do you think he has this type of plan, and where ohh where do you have evidence that the American people would support this??
Exactly. Bush did not win the popular vote in 2000 and only won it in 2004 by a slim margin. So, you have at best slightly more than 50% of the population supporting him in his best election. The idea that even half of those people would roll over and let him “suspend the constitution” is jsut laughable. We have never in our > 200 year history even come close to such a scenario. Neither Bush nor any other president is going to “suspend the constitution”. It’s a hypothetical that makes no sense. We might as well imagine what we’d do if Bush sprouted horns and declared himslef the anti-Christ.
No, it’s ludicrous to argue that it can happen here, until it does. And that fact that America is the world’s oldest democracy (depending on one’s definition), makes America special. Not the greatest thing ever, or better than anyone else, but special, yes. Between the two parties, the media and the American love of individual freedom, it is ridiculous to think the American people would sign up for this kind of thing.
Where did I deny that your point had a basis? My objection was to you introducing the topic prematurely.
I agree there is damned little threat of a sudden evisceration of the Constitution. What is happening is more like the Death by Ten Thousand Cuts.
Best example is the signing statement and its somewhat dubious legitimacy. Roughly said, the Executive is supposed to execute laws, to enforce and embody the will of the Legislative, as interpreted by the Judiciary in the form of the Supreme Court. The Leader’s intellectual allies have put forth a rather shabby construct called the “unitary executive” that purports that the Founding Fathers intended a much more powerful Executive branch than previously imagined (or simply failed to be explicit enough to prevent such a calamity). Concurrent with that, they posit special “war powers”, suggesting that they only mean to bugger the Constitution a little bit, and only so long as we are “at war”. The definition of “at war” remains entirely in the hands of the Executive.
We are exhorted to view Lincoln’s actions during the Civil War as a precedent, that the President becomes Temporary Dictator in times of National Emergency. We are also to regard the “War of Terror” as equivalent to the Civil War in order of magnitude, flimsy justifications knitted together from half-truths and willful ignorance.
To those who support such malignant encroachments on our Constitution, I have a rather simple question: what if the next President is not the paragon of candor and virtue that Beloved Leader has shown himself? What if he is a scoundrel determined to retain power by whatever means necessary? What is to prevent him from exaggerating some meaningless incident…say, phantom torpedo boats launching ectoplasmic missiles…into the required National Emergency?
Our leaders must be our servants, we carry their balls around in our pockets so we can reach in and squeeze them every so often, to keep them in line. There is no drug so addictive as power, power is better than money, it can’t be taxed. Only men of the sternest virtue and character can resist such corruption, and we mostly vote for human beings, angels being in woefully short supply.
Don’t worry about the Constitution being stuffed headfirst into a wood chipper. Worry about it being nibbled to death by ducks.