Should we count that as another “No,” then?
They can completely kiss my ass. I’m not talking a few sparse pecks. No, I want every bit of it covered with lips at one point or another.
And even then I wouldn’t go.
If drafted to serve in Iraq or the Middle East, I would go…
To Canada. Immediately.
Its hypothetical anyhow, why not open up to women? Israel has mandatory conscription for women. And in theory you can draft women into non-combat roles: Roosevelt proposed drafting nurses during WWII cite. I’m not trying to trivialize military service here, I just think its a legitimate question for women to ask themselves too, since we also benefit/suffer from our country’s actions.
I would try to get out of it legally, and if that failed I would go. I wouldn’t be in a combat role (since I’m female), so the consequences of not going seem scarier.
Those are my thoughts. If the US faced a real threat, I would be right there for her. If someone invaded the States, and they needed help, I’d pick up a gun.
Iraq was never a proper threat to the US. I see it more as a money grab for Halliburton, a way for Bush II to one up his daddy and catch Saddam, and the US securing a location of “friendly” oil. Those are not reasons to fight and die.
That said, I have left the US partly because of the above listed reasons. The whole thing makes me sick and ashamed of being an 'American".
I will defend the USA if she really needs it and will also defend my new homeland Canada if she needs it, but I will never pick up a gun for a cash grab or political pride.
I’m female so I’m sure it would never come down to me being drafted (even though my dad supports female drafting), but hypothetically…no, I wouldn’t go. I think it’s ridiculous what’s going on over there and there’s no way in hell I’d risk my life for it. During Vietnam, my dad was nearing drafting age and did NOT want to end up front lines. So he lied about his age (he was barely 17) and enlisted in the Marines. He went over to Vietnam but not as the ‘grunts’ so to speak. My brothers…I’m sure both of them would go to the draft if called, since we were raised a military family and they both did a bit of Reserves work.
Negative, you’d see me at the local prison.
Not that I’m against military service mind you. I’m actually seriously considering joining the Air Force.
I am, however, extremely opposed to people “making” me do things.
May I suggest then that you do not join the Air Force. There is absolutely no way that you can avoid being made to do things if you join the military.
astro
I was of draft age during the Vietnam War. I went to college form 1969 through 1973. The Vietnam War and the draft ended in 1973 and I consider myself very fortunate.
I am SO glad you started this topic.
In my Straight Dope posting history I have been one of the most vocal beraters of the lily-livered chickenhawks (most of whom are conservative) who are so quick to answer their country’s patriotic call by sending others to do the fighting. Thomas Paine called such folks “summer soldiers” and “sunshine patriots”.
Two of the most egregious examples of which are:
• John Engler - former governor of Michigan failed his draft physical during the Vietnam War because he was 2 pounds overweight - yes TWO f***ing pounds. :mad:
• Jack Kemp had a medical deferment from serving (also during the Vietnam War). Luckily he bravely rallied his resolve and was able to play quarterback for the Buffalo Bills. :mad:
Who knows, maybe you folks will be lucky enough to have a father who can get you into the Texas National Guard.
Yes, things will really get stirred up if a draft is instituted (and it will start again someday). If the current draft age population wishes to follow the ways of these “glorious” leaders, I imagine we won’t see too many Nathan Hale or Patrick Tillman types.
Airman Doors - good to see you involved in this discussion.
It’s great to believe in ideals; it’s great to organize around ideals. Love for a nation-state is something that I find to be very harmful and dangerous, however; the idea of patriotism is something that I cannot appreciate.
The only possible way I’d fight in a war is if I became thoroughly convinced that the evil I’d do as a soldier paled next to the evil I’d do by not being a soldier. And there’s next to no chance that I’d become convinced that would be true in the Middle East. So my question would be: CO status? Move to another country? Resist and go to prison? Or duck under the system?
I owe nothing to the nation-state, so none of these choices are more honorable than the others, IMO; it’d just be a question of how much of a martyr I wanted to be for this particular cause.
Daniel
Since your objection is mostly philosophical, I’d like to add a philosophical point of my own in response:
You do owe to the nation-state. What you are, what you have become, and what you will do in the future is entirely a function of your surroundings. The mere fact that you are able to post your opinion here is proof of your debt to your nation-state: what you perceive as a privilege, maybe even a right, is nothing more than a luxury that millions cannot afford. Your nation, through its technology, economy, and innovation has made such luxuries affordable to common citizens. Contrast that with people who cannot afford to do something as simple as eat, or people who are persecuted on a regular basis for having so little as a slightly different belief.
The question then becomes this: what are you willing to do, how far are you willing to go, to allow this state of affairs to continue into perpetuity, or even to affect some change in the future? It is understandable that in some cases you steadfastly disagree with what your government is doing, and you have that right. You also are allowed the right to abstain from or reject your nation’s demand that you serve. But to say that you don’t owe is absurd. That is why, barring a CO classification, people have to pay their debt in jail.
Those are my principles, and I have been fortunate that I joined a unit that doesn’t actively participate in killing, but at the same time I am cognizant that the organization I am a part of is complicit in the deaths of human beings, therefore I am complicit. Don’t think that doesn’t weigh upon me. I originally justified it by saying that we were doing the right thing. When that justification was proven false I found myself in quite the ethical quandary, one that I struggle with on a regular basis. However, I am also cognizant of the fact that while this war is wrong, the next one will (may) not be, and I have an obligation to my nation and my fellow citizens to be prepared to fight the next one. That’s what I have fallen back on. Whether I’m right or wrong is a matter of debate. But I owe, and I’m paying my debt the best that I can. I’m paying it to my family members who went before me to fight what you might consider “real” enemies. I’m paying it to the people who cannot go. I’m even paying it so that you have the right to say that you will not go. But don’t tell me that you don’t owe. You owe. We all do.
Really well said. I really appreciate the job you are doing and respect your post above.
I am glad I did my service time when things felt more clear cut. I had no great quandaries and I knew that I personally would never be confronted with having to shoot someone. In this way my time in service was simple. The Cold War ended and I could know I did my very tiny part.
Jim
Absolutely not. And I would do whatever it took to get out of the draft.
I have a good life, good friends, and family and a girlfriend who love me dearly - no way am I putting this all on the line and going to Iraq, a place where we have no reason to be in the first place. The war is sickening and disgusting to me, and I want absolutely no part in it.
If America is invaded and our volunteer army is not sufficient to defend the home front, and they’re drafting people to fight here, then I would do it - this country is my home, and what kind of person wouldn’t defend his own home?
No, I think you misread that, or I mistyped it. I mean that if I voluntarily joined, that’s one thing. I have no problem taking orders if it is my own damn fault for being there, good or bad.
But being “forced” into service to me is wrong in concept.
For a similiar example, when I lived with my parents my mother would make me clean my room. I hated doing it, because I HAD to. Now that I live on my own, it is my choice, and I keep the place spotless.
If that makes a bit more sense.
Airman Doors
A very eloquently-stated philosophy. As I said, I’m glad you’ve joined this discussion.
I guess I didn’t answer the OP fully. If for example, I was born a few years before 1951, then I would have been of draft age at graduation and I would have joined the military voluntarily as my older brother did. He joined the Navy in 1968 and was honorably discharged several years later. Currently he’s in a VA hospital getting a hip operation. (The injury is not service-related. Sadly, everyone gets old.) Anyway, I think this illustrates the democratic system very well. To praphrase John Kennedy - my brother served his country and now his country is taking care of him.
Of course, I am answering the OP with my early 1970’s mentality. Back then, I did not know about people taking the sleazy-ass way out of military service. If the draft were now active and I were of draft age, I think I’d try and figure out some sleaze-ball way out of military service. Some of our current leaders have left quite a dubious “legacy” to a new generation.
Not a chance, for the reasons other have mentioned. At this point, after all the harm America has done, I feel no loyalty or obligation towards this country. I’m certainly not going to kill people for it; as I’ve said before, I’d shoot myself before fighting for America.
Excellent post, Airman Doors.
I am British, so maybe a draft does not apply … but maybe it does.
I think I would go, rather on the basis that I initially supported the UK presence in Basra - to prevent things getting out of order.
My received memories from WWII are sufficient to make me believe that one needs something (or some people) to counterbalance non-pragmatic idiocy.
Not only would I not go to the middle east for the reasons stated above, but I think that the insult and indignity of an actual draft to try to put an end to this mess that we willfully created over there would be enough to radicalize me into joining some sort of local violent revolution against the powers that be.
[slight hijack]
And this is why every individual, and every corporation should pay their fair share of taxes back to this nation-state, rather than immorally dodging that responsibility through tax cuts and corporate welfare that shifts the burden onto the middle and lower classes.